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KerryM 
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Joined: 17 Jun 2010
Location: Central Iowa
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 Topic: CA Engine Stuck
Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 7:18am |
So I ran across a very nice CA for sale, and checked it out. I knew I had to have it, even though I discovered the engine was stuck. Sat outside for 3 years with the muffler uncovered (frustrating that something as simple as putting a beer can over it would have prevented this). Anyway, I got it home, pulled the plugs, clear water poured out of cylinder #2. I expected that. I drained the oil, but a gallon of green anti-freeze came out first, then the oil. That troubles me more than anything. Sounds like a serious issue inside. I haven't taken anything apart yet.
Any initial thoughts from anyone who is familiar with this situation? Worst case scenario, if I need a block or even a complete engine, it looks like CAs, Cs, and Bs may be interchangable?
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PaulB
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Location: Rocky Ridge Md
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 7:26am |
Wow, that's a sharp looking find. The engines from a B, C, CA, RC and the 125 power units are all interchangeable. Your worst case would be to find the block cracked, although, I'd suspect that a sleeve has broken allowing the anti-freeze to get into the oil. Take everything apart first to see what can be used and go from there.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Alvin M
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Location: PA
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 7:33am |
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pull valve cover check freeze out plugs .they rust and get pin holes fill with water then check for leaks plugs are under rocker shaft
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Dick L
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Location: Edon Ohio
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 7:43am |
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Nice looking tractor! It will not be that hard to save but will take a bit of work. Three years is a long time with water in a cylinder as far as using some magic potion to free it up. I would pull the head to see what all I needed. At least two cylinders will have had standing water and bad rust. Pictures as you work thru it would be fun for all.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 8:17am |
If you want to find out how the coolant got down below, take the valve cover off, fill the radiator and put 7 PSI of regulated air pressure on the radiator fill hole. If it leaks out the core plugs in the top of the head, that might be the only culprit. If not, remove the oil pan and look for coolant leaking down from around a sleeve. That being said, I would guess it would need new sleeves and pistons anyway, since it has set so long open to the elements. Not a real big deal when whole engine kits are available for about $600.
Besides the engines mention above, I believe any 138 cu in engine from a D10 or D12, any 149 out of a D10, D12 or D14, or any 149 or 160 out of a D15 will bolt right in. The CE engine from a B,C or CA would probably be most available and economical of any of these
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 10:42am |
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 12:51pm |
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I'd pressure test the cooling system first and than perform a full tear down. If it's not the freeze plugs in the head or thehead gasket that's usually obvious when you remove the head than it must be the sleeve O rings. You must fix the antifreeze in the oil or freeing it is useless.
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B26240
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 4:01pm |
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The CA is a real nice size small tractor with lots of potential. My suggestion is to do it right with a complete teardown and overhaul, when you get done it will be a tractor you will enjoy including tractor rides. Even if you need to wait/save up the money I hope you save it and do it right. Mark
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 5:25pm |
Kerry, Welcome! As mentioned all the above are possible. The pressure test is a very good way to start. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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KerryM
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Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 6:11pm |
Thanks for the replies and ideas! I finally had time to check a
little deeper. I took off the valve cover (I hated to...you don't see
one sealed up this well often), the top end looks clean. The 3 freeze
plugs don't show any signs of leaking. I took out the oil drain plug
again and filled the radiator up with water. I put an automotive
pressure tester on and pumped it up to 7 lbs and waited. Held pressure
for 20 minutes. I went up to 13 lbs (what have I got to lose at this
point) and 30 minutes later its at 12 lbs. There's an occasional drip
from the oil plug, but that could be residual from draining it a couple
days ago.
So no real answers yet. I would think
if it were catastrophic, I'd see pressure dropping and a gusher of
water in the bucket below. Eventually, I'll tear it down and see what I
find. I have to get some other projects done first.
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 6:19pm |
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Might as well pull the plugs and fill with marvel mystery oil and let it sit for a week. After that back one tire put it in gear and push the tire by hand. Weather it breaks free or not pull the head and clean it out free up the valves and check out the cylinder walls what you have in the pictures looks good.
Edited by Dakota Dave - 15 Jul 2018 at 6:21pm
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DiyDave
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 6:23pm |
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I'd prolly drop the oil pan, and see if you can spot a tiny leak, at the bottom of one of the cylinder liners. top end looks remarkably clean, like someone has been in there recently. Didja get any history of the previous owner's use/situation?
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 7:28pm |
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Forcing a stuck engine over by the rear wheels or a crank can cause way more trouble. If a stuck piston was on the up stroke, that means turning the crankshaft by any means makes that connecting rod push against the piston and the force can be much greater than normal running force and so bend the connecting rod. If the piston moves then after the rod is bent sideways the piston is angled making for greater friction in the sleeve and the rod isn't aligned with the crank shaft so adds more friction. Sometime the added forces on the bent rod causes it to break and then the stub can blow a hole in the side of the block or the oil pan causing a lot more problems. Its better to drop the pan, and pull the head, and take the connecting rod cap off the cylinder that isn't moving and extract the stuck piston, sleeve, and rod. Don't force the engine to turn.
Gerald J.
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HoughMade
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 9:08pm |
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When my B was stuck (also mainly cylinder #2), I ended up pulling the head and trying every concoction in the world and eventually used Evapo-Rust in that cylinder overnight. After that, in went ATF (again), and some gentle working back and forth with a pipe wrench on the PTO. After a couple of days of getting just a very little bit of movement when I worked it twice a day, one day it just broke loose and started spinning free.
Now it runs great ,but I never had any antifreeze inside.
I would add that in addition to the rust on the cylinder walls, the combustion chamber in the head was rusted too. I probably should have cut the seats, but I ended up lapping them until they sealed. Eventually, it will probably need a full head job.
Edited by HoughMade - 15 Jul 2018 at 9:11pm
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1951 B
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KerryM
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Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 11:09pm |
The previous owner was no help. But it looks to me like someone restored this tractor not all that long ago. The paint isn't original, decals done at that time, I'm guessing. And the valve cover gasket has a part number plainly visible. I think it had a lot of work done at one point. Shame it wasn't properly cared for after that. I'm sure more of its history will show itself as time goes on.
I probably won't try any remedy to un-stick the piston(s). I'd just as soon know there isn't any rust or corrosion hanging around, or the potential for other damage. I'd like it done the right way. I've worked on way too many vehicles to know what can happen cutting corners.
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Dick L
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Posted: 16 Jul 2018 at 7:12am |
 KerryM wrote:
The previous owner was no help. But it looks to me like someone restored this tractor not all that long ago. The paint isn't original, decals done at that time, I'm guessing. And the valve cover gasket has a part number plainly visible. I think it had a lot of work done at one point. Shame it wasn't properly cared for after that. I'm sure more of its history will show itself as time goes on.
I probably won't try any remedy to un-stick the piston(s). I'd just as soon know there isn't any rust or corrosion hanging around, or the potential for other damage. I'd like it done the right way. I've worked on way too many vehicles to know what can happen cutting corners.
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I bought two B's that had new pistons and sleeves that the owners couldn't get them running after spending the money and time. They both had then let set out after they gave up on the tractor for a few years and were set up. Two cylinders on both were pitted with an inch of rust crud on top of the pistons. Good choice to do it right and tear it down.
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redbirds
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 2:08pm |
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I dealt with this same issue not long ago on my first C...first tractor for that matter. I knew zero about them and just fell for the cool look of the old thing. Mine was stuck beyond stuck, so I started with the basics- fluid of some sort down the plug holes. No real luck. Removed the valve cover and solid rusty mess. Nothing would move. Removed the head and had standing water/fluid of some sort in a couple cylinders. Cleaned all that out and put a little of (insert whatever fluid) in each cylinder...maybe an 1/8" or so. Took a very thin feeler gauge around the wall of the cylinder where it intersects with the piston. This helped me feel how frozen the piston was and where. Slid it up and down a bit and worked it around the circumference over and over. Eventually, I could see that the fluid was making its way down into the cylinder. Don't jam the gauge down there; you just feel a bit and may stop shy of a ring. Once I had it working its way down, I gently persuaded the near tdc piston downward with a softer wood dowel and a mallet. Made sure the dowel covered the whole piston. Used a scotch brite pad with same fluid to gently clean walls of cylinders. The thing runs amazingly well, and I knew nothing but labor and time as my tools. If I can free it, anyone can. Good luck!
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 3:05pm |
gee that's clean ! I'd dump 50/50 acetone/ATF into each plug hole, walk away for a day , next day, add more mix to the holes, repeat for 4-5 days.. put in neutral, place pipwrench on PTO shaft, engage PTO lever and GENTLY try to turn it over. If it doesn't move, add more mix down the holes, wait another day. If it DOES move goto say 2 oclock, then back to noon and walk away, for another day. next day try to move a bit futher, say 3 or 4 oclock then back to noon. You'll get a 'feel' of how 'stiff' it is. real stiff, wait another dayif 'ok' go back and forth gradually you'll be able to go 'round the clock'... I did this to Troy, my first D-14, took 2 weeks of 'mix' and patience. She's runs fine after having unlovingly dumped in a 'shed' for 25 years ! jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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KerryM
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 3:19pm |
Thanks for the tips! SOMEDAY I'm going to have time to get it back in the shop and check it out better. Right now its sitting outside. WITH a beer can over the exhaust. A buddy of mine stopped over and said, WTF is that on there for? Its a little too late! I said, it doesn't matter. No one is going to drive by and say, that guys an idiot for not covering the muffler! 
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HoughMade
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 3:28pm |
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Since it's just sitting around, do you at least have some penetrant of some sort in there? If you don't have time to work on right now- let the oil work on it. I too used ATF and Acetone, but whether it was better than just ATF or MMO or WD or PB or anything else, I couldn't tell you. Ultimately, I had to remove the rust.
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1951 B
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KerryM
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 3:55pm |
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You know, maybe I'll try it. I started thinking...if I have to remove a sleeve with a piston stuck in it, I still have to get the connecting rod out of the piston. Would be handier if the piston moves...
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HoughMade
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Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 4:10pm |
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Won't hurt anything to let it soak while you are busy elsewhere.
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1951 B
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KerryM
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Posted: 28 Jul 2018 at 10:58am |
So just for the h*ll of it, I stuck a borescope in the spark plug holes to see what I could see. 2 pics of good vs. bad cylinders, and 2 pics of good vs. bad valves. You have to use your imagination a little looking at the valve heads from a sideways view. Yeah, I probably spent as much time screwing around with this as I would have removing the head. but I thought it was interesting.
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DougS
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Posted: 28 Jul 2018 at 1:15pm |
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Don't even try to turn that engine over. Just replace the pistons, rings, bearings and sleeves. Have a shop work the head, replacing valves and seats. She'll be as good as new.
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Orange Blood
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Posted: 28 Jul 2018 at 10:15pm |
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Just so you don't have to do this again... a beer can over the top of the muffler while helpful will not stop water from getting in. If you notice the muffler goes "Into" the manifold instead of "around" or "over" it. You cannot get a water tight seal, although many have tried. You must either shed the sweet thing, or cover the entire engine if you must leave it outside. I don't have room for all of our tractors inside, so I have told myself if I have another one, I am going to fabricate a skirt for the bottom of the muffler pipe, and weld it one, so water has to drip "away" from the manifold.
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Still in use:
HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060
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Dick L
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Posted: 29 Jul 2018 at 6:23am |
Orange Blood wrote:
Just so you don't have to do this again... a beer can over the top of the muffler while helpful will not stop water from getting in. If you notice the muffler goes "Into" the manifold instead of "around" or "over" it. You cannot get a water tight seal, although many have tried. You must either shed the sweet thing, or cover the entire engine if you must leave it outside. I don't have room for all of our tractors inside, so I have told myself if I have another one, I am going to fabricate a skirt for the bottom of the muffler pipe, and weld it one, so water has to drip "away" from the manifold. |
Much easier to tap the manifold to 1 1/4" tapered pipe threads and seal it like you well would be sealed and put a muffler over the pipe nipple. 
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 29 Jul 2018 at 6:30am |
gee I like DickL's solution !! You should market a 'kit', small pipe of pipe, big tap! Bet the 1 1/4" NPT tap ain't cheap BUT a lot less than fixin an engine. It cost me $500 to build a 'simple' 9by12 shed for my D-14s. just sticks,plywood walls, tin roof. nothing fancy but has saved them, and now the forklift.
Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 29 Jul 2018 at 7:24am |
Kerry, Your doing good! The one piston looks good the othe sleeve not so good! Same with valves. I opened one stuck engine (WD) pictures on here. It was not pretty. center cylinders rusted and stuck very tight. Finally got it loose but two used sleeves were needed. Never got that engine back together but the block became a donor for the WD45 I am working on now. Good news on your tractor is that the rest of the tractor looks pretty good. A farmers method to fix this would be to disassemble, hone the sleeves, clean up the valves, new rings, assemble, and run it. But I know your going to fix this one right. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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KerryM
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Posted: 29 Jul 2018 at 12:05pm |
Orange Blood wrote:
Just so you don't have to do this again... a beer can over the top of the muffler while helpful will not stop water from getting in. If you notice the muffler goes "Into" the manifold instead of "around" or "over" it. You cannot get a water tight seal, although many have tried. You must either shed the sweet thing, or cover the entire engine if you must leave it outside. I don't have room for all of our tractors inside, so I have told myself if I have another one, I am going to fabricate a skirt for the bottom of the muffler pipe, and weld it one, so water has to drip "away" from the manifold. |
You have a valid point. I just assumed it was like my D17 with the
threaded pipe. I just looked, and its not. When I have everything apart,
I will be sure and tap the manifold, like Dick suggested 
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