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C hydraulic problems. Need advice.

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DREAM View Drop Down
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: Elberton,GA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DREAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: C hydraulic problems. Need advice.
    Posted: 15 Mar 2010 at 7:49pm
Trying to get the hydraulic pump working on my C. Tractor sat outside for an undetermined amount of time with no shifter boot. Guess what the tranny and hydraulics was full of? Yep, drained, flushed and refilled last spring, but hydraulics would not work. Figured it was crudded up. Got tractor running pretty good and decided to tackle hydraulics. Pulled pump apart last weekend, it was full of crud and water as expected. Cleaned and blew out as much as I could. All springs, check balls, and seats were present and accounted for. Plungers were slightly stuck. Got both of those out, cleaned them up and their bores with some 1000 grit paper. I could not get the suction valve seats out. Manual said to use a 1/4"-28 bolt threaded into the valves to pull them out, but mine were bigger(5/16 NF?). Check balls seemed to be seating OK. Put everything back together as close to what the manual said to do as I could. Set relief valve at 9/16" like the manual said. Reinstalled everything. Started tractor and engaged PTO. Pulled up on lift lever. Nothing. Tried helping it with my hand some. It will try to raise, but you can push it back down by hand. I know the cylinder is going to need replacing, the ram is rusty and slightly pitted. I'm not even getting a lot of oil leaking by the cylinder seals. It doesn't seem to be building pressure.
I can't tell by the exploded view of the pump, are there supposed to be any kind of rings on the plungers? There was nothing on mine when I pulled them out.
Do I need a complete rebuild? Can I even get parts to do that?
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DREAM View Drop Down
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: Elberton,GA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DREAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 7:39pm
C'mon ya'll, I know these little rascals are aggravating, but don't leave me hangin here!
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Jacob (WI,ND) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob (WI,ND) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 7:43pm
I'd help, but you already tore into yours more than I have had to tear into mine.  Don't know what else to suggest.  I have a feeling many here are thinking the same thing?  But I'm sure someone has an answer for you.  Good luck.
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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Rick of HopeIN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick of HopeIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 7:45pm
Not much to rebuild on those little guys.  I can't believe you got nothin out of it.  If the hose is off the cylinder nothing comes out?   

Slight pitting of the cylinder rod is OK, mine was a mess but the old leather seals hold oil pretty good.   Sure it ain't just full of air?
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DREAM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DREAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:00pm
Might be full of air. I operated it several times. Did get some oil out by the ram seals. The manual didn't say anything about priming it. Just covered testing it by hand before installing. I didn't have a pressure gauge to do that with anyway. Does anybody know if it has to be primed? If so, how?
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:14pm
if you have a thin weight oil like universal hydraulic fluid, or 20 wt oil, it should prime o.k. I normally leave the hose off the cylinder and put it into a bucket and try to pump out a cup or so it make sure its  working.... You can picture the two rollers going up and down with the cam lobes.. the two pistons are going in and out and pumping oil... the ball s and seat must fit pretty good or you will suck the oil back into the pump that you just pumped out.. normally when you drop the balls in the holes, you punch them with a brass drift it form a good seat between the ball and its seat. You also need the two springs on top of the valve pointing downward on top of the balls to make them seat correctly.. I normally clamp the pump in a vise and put a spoon full of oil into the suction tube and push the rollers in and out with my hand and watch it pump. you can pry them with a screw driver as it gets harder and actually get it to pump 2-3000 psi if you want to see it do it. Only takes a couple spoonfulls of oil... i assume the two cam lobes inside the PTO housing are in place and o.k. and stroking the rollers properly?
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DREAM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DREAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:29pm
Steve, the cams on the PTO shaft seem to be working fine. I do have the PTO engaged when trying it. I did not try taking the hose off first. I did punch the balls on the discharge valves with a brass punch. I couldn't get the suction valve seats out, that may be where the problem is. They may not be seating right. I was able to drive out the relief valve seat. I set it back to 9/16" from the machined plate where the ser# is. I think I was reading that right? I'll have to try it with the hose off, but i'm afraid i'll have to go back into the suction valves. I can feel a slight pulse of pressure on the hose when I try to lift it. Are there supposed to be any kind of o-rings on the piston plungers? there was nothing but a groove on mine.
I am using the original 30 wt oil in the tranny.
One other question" I put the linkage and operator plates together like the manual called for. Wound the spring, which was unhooked, counter-clockwise to the closest pin on the housing and hooked it there. When I raise the lift handle, the plates will move a certain distance, then snap the rest of the way to the lift position. I don't remember this happenning. Is that right? Sorry for the long posts.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:38pm
i dont remember the round plate "snapping the rest of the way". I think its more like, you move the two plates 45 degrees together, then the spring loaded one keeps moving while the other one stops. Thats kind of waht i remember, its been a couple years since the last one. I think when you let go of the handle, the second plate "snaps" back to the position of the first plate which is the "hold position" on the valve. then you have to "push" it backward to get it to drop, or "pull" if forward to get it to raise. When you let go of the handle, the spring pulls it back to the center "hold" spot.... if that is working o.k., then i would guess the balls are leaking by the seat. thats what traps the oil outlet from the pump while it grabs another stroke to pump out.  Once you get it to pump, if it wont "hold",, thats another problem... but the springs and balls do the check vavle part of the pumping.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:40pm
the 9/16 dimensioin is fine as a start. after the tractor is running and pumping o.k., you put a gauge on the hose and see what the max pressure outlet is... you can take off the plug and tap the piston down further than 9/16 if you only have 2500 psi or so... dont go to far,  1/16 inch more is WAY big.... were talking  .020- .030 type movement to get more psi.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DREAM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DREAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:46pm
Yeah, they said not to exceed 5/8". That it would affect lowering if you drove it in too far.
I need to check on the spring setup for the activator plates. What you say makes sense. It should pull the outer plate with it to the lift position, then hold if you let off. Maybe i've got the spring wound wrong. Thanks for all the advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2010 at 8:54pm
Dream, I've only been into one pump and that was for the "Build a B".After going through it all I put the pump in a vise and used a porta power with gage to "adjust" the relief valve. It took several adjustments to get good pressure out of it. I still don't know if it worked out ok cause the hydraulics haven't been used that I know of. The relief could be bypassing, it might be the first thing to check.
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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