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C/CA backfire and surging

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Jgranat View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 10:30pm
I just bought a C, looks like a CA wide front end on it, may even be a CA engine.  I got it to run but it back fires and surges really bad.  I have drained the tank, put new fuel in, cleaned the carb, checked all the plugs and spark gaps, plugs look good, compression is 90 or more on each cylinder with my raggedy old tester, plug wires are copper and it has a fairbanks morse magneto on it, every plug seems to fire ok.

I am open to suggestions on which way to go next.  My thoughts are to set the valves, check for broken valve springs or anything else under the cover.  Manifold gaskets, head gasket if need be.  How much work is it to rebuild a governor?  Throttle lever will not stay put on the rack of teeth mounted to the steering column, had a bungee cord on it when I got it.

I don't ask for much help and can figure out most things on my own but this doesn't make sense unless I was lied to.  The previous owner acquired it through an estate, said he knows it ran and had seen it run, but it had sat for 2 years and they couldn't start it.  The carb was full of varnish and I think I got it pretty well sorted out.  My 13 year old and my 10 year old both would like to drive this tractor and I would very much like to see that.  I have 2 other CA's and have never had any trouble keeping them running, this one has tried my skills a bit.  It was raining all day here or I would have done a carb swap to see if that was the issue, my gut says it is deeper.

Help, please.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2021 at 10:38pm
-plug should be changed... looks dont count..
-setting the valves and checking springs is a good idea.. one might be sticking.
-i would also pull the plugs and rotate the engine until the mag SNAPS coming up on #1 cylinder... look into the 1 inch hole on side of flywheel housing and check for TDC mark.
- i would also remove the throttle link at the front left of the motor, from the arm that goes across to the governor... Set your hand throttle at FULL... then pull the carb link to FULL OPEN.. see if the carb link lines up with the hole in the governor rod arm ( if not, bend to fit).
--grind the teeth on the throttle quadrant so it will grab the lever -- or fix the spring.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 7:06am
Before going crazy doing all kinds of work, check to make sure that the plugs wires are all connected in the proper order, It's been know to have them in the Farmall order not the AC order. 
  As for the throttle not staying in position, I file the notches to get sharp edges and weld a spot on the throttle itself to build up the worn area and sometimes it needs a little twist. A new spring can also be a big help. 
  A burned out manifold gasket can also give you headaches. The only place I recommend using RTV is on manifold gaskets. I use the Hi-Temp on them because they no longer have absestos in them to really hold up to the heat.  
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 7:45am
1,2,4,3 is how they are hooked up, I checked both ends of all plug wires, and grounded all 4 plugs then rolled engine over, all showed good spark.

I think I'm gonna check that manifold gasket tonight, it's time to pull the hood off anyway to get a better look at things. Valves probably need set anyway. I will try to get some better pictures of it as well.

Many thanks for the advice.

Edited by Jgranat - 12 Jul 2021 at 8:17am
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Fred in Pa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 11:20am
Dose it back fire out exhaust or intake ( CARB ) or both 
He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Jgranat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 12:31pm
It looked like it came out of the carb Fred but I don't know for sure. Could have been both, I will look closer tonight. It was random as far as I could tell, not like it was every revolution.

Edited by Jgranat - 12 Jul 2021 at 12:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 2:11pm
could be a sticky valve... Not necessarily needing adjustment, just needs to loosen up on the stem.. It might cure itself after running an hour.... or could spray with penetrant if valve cover is off.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Steve in NJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 2:16pm
As Steve mentioned, put a set of plugs in it first. And not Champions!  You'll give yourself more problems!  LOL!  NGK's or Autolites will do just fine. A crappy set of plugs will do all the things that it's doin'.......
Steve@B&B
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 5:36pm
Before you start tearing things all apart and buying unneeded parts.  Start it up and while it's running, spray something flammable around the manifold.  If it smooths out then you will need new manifold gaskets.  Easy test, a little difficult to fix. 

Heat the manifold nuts to red then throw some water on them.  It will separate the metals. Lots easier to take apart.  you'll probably want to change the manifold studs and nuts once you get it apart.

It also creates a good opportunity to clean off that side of the block and paint it.  scrape off the thick stuff then use easy off oven cleaner to clean off the rest.  You can get easy off at the dollar store for about a buck a can.  Pick up a couple rattle cans of AC orange at your local tractor store.

Good luck!


Edited by john(MI) - 12 Jul 2021 at 5:36pm
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2021 at 6:48pm
Sound advice from one and all. Thank you very much! I sprayed starter fluid around the manifold tonight while it was running and the engine smooths right out. Off with hood and some quick impact wrench work had the manifold off, the studs securing the manifold to the head at rear of engine were rusted badly enough they could no longer secure the manifolds properly. The two stud holes in the head are in good shape, some new studs and a manifold gasket should get us back in shape. I will report back when I have this fixed. New plugs and a carb kit are coming as well. Governor rod hole line up well when checked too.

Best part is my boys helped me diagnose it and break it down, it's tarped for now.
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Sounds like you are on the right track, keep up the good work, and great to hear the kids are involved!
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2021 at 11:30am
I hope this solves it. I bought this tractor for the kids. I told the oldest boy we were going to work on it after supper and the youngest boy went and told the middle one, all three of them were in on it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2021 at 12:13pm
Well that wasn't it. New manifold gasket is installed and it still backfires. It is popping thru the carb. I am going to switch out plugs, then wires. I need to look up timing the magneto, and make sure #1 is timed correct to the mag as well.

To be continued...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2021 at 1:12pm
timing mark is on the side of the flywheel housing , a 1 inch hole to look thru... With plugs out, roll motor over until it starts to come up on compression #1 cylinder ( finger over the plug hole.. as your roll up slowly, you will hear the mag  "SNAP"... look in the timing hole and you should be at TDC.... it will advance to FIRE after startup.

Dont hurt to check timing , but i would bet on plugs /governor setting / carb.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2021 at 3:18pm
I hope it is plugs or wires. Carb is cleaned out but possible I missed something. Fuel tank was washed and dried which it badly needed, water and rust came included with the stale gas. I have 2 running CA's and plan to swap parts until I get it to run. I'm at at tractor show with the boys but supposed to rain all day tomorrow so I will be back after it.

I just saw Sugarmaker go by. I will have to track him down yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2021 at 10:41am
Found a bent push rod on #2 exhaust. I appreciate all the suggestions but my gut was right. It sits a good inch below the end of the adjuster, time to dig in and figure out why. It is almost like there is no lifter under it, it sits that low.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2021 at 12:42pm
The 170 here was found to have bent push rods. Traced to sticky valves which made contact with pistons. Hope yours doesn't go that far
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2021 at 12:55pm
YEA... tap on the top of each valve stem and see that they all POP up and down without any lag........ If you straighten the rod, does it "FIT" then ?  Lifter should not come out of the hole with cam installed... Sticky valve is a more believable cause .... hate to see you open the block/ cam for a valve problem.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2021 at 3:46pm
Bent it back and it does fit, it wasn't seated properly in the lifter. Valve seems to move okay when I tap on it. Gotta get another rod and see how things go. This tractor has been rebuilt and painted at some point, I have faith it will run well once I get the gremlins sorted. Story was it sat for 2 years, I bet it sat longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2021 at 10:31pm
I have worked over a couple of bent push rods and reused them... have to lay on a straight flat steel plate and check it for true... Work slowly with a hammer and it can be done... didnt have replacements available at that time and needed it done now.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2021 at 7:36am
I did just that and have the rod pretty straight, got it back in. I now have to figure out why my hand crank that works on both my CA tractors will not engage the front pulley on this C, I am having poor luck getting TDC at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2021 at 8:46am
You could "assume" everything was OK and one valve stuck from setting. If that valve now POPS up and down easy......... i would just startup and see how it runs !

im assuming your trying to time it... If your trying to CHECK the valve lash on that one valve, just crank over a click at a time until you see the valve CLOSE, then check to see that you have some clearance ( wiggle by hand.)----- might also be able to engage PTO an rotate the shaft with a pipe wrench ?


Edited by steve(ill) - 18 Jul 2021 at 8:53am
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2021 at 5:46am
I call it more of a guess than an assumption but i plan to try and start it. I figured i would set the clearance on all the valves while I was in there.

As far as the timing, I took the entire cap off the mag and lost the proper mesh of the C and red dot. I am a FM newbie, have several Eismann, Wico, and Caterpillar magnetos but this one comes apart different and it caught me, live and learn. I will give the PTO turning a try tonight and see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2021 at 8:10am
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2021 at 9:49am
That is a good link, thank you Steve!

Edited by Jgranat - 19 Jul 2021 at 9:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jgranat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2021 at 7:42pm
RUNNING!!

Straightened the push rod, set the valve lash, properly assembled and timed the mag and off she went. Still have a few bugs, but i'd top up the fluids and mow with it, it needs to work.

Thanks again one and all for the help, my 3 sons thank you too. They were all involved in lending a hand.

Edited by Jgranat - 20 Jul 2021 at 8:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2021 at 8:42pm
"Throttle lever will not stay put on the rack of teeth mounted to the steering column, had a bungee cord on it when I got it."

I have same problem with the throttle lever on my CA.  A new spring did not help.  Eventually I'll disassemble and work on the teeth and lever notch as suggested above.

For a short-term fix I found some metal brackets in my junk drawer that fit the lever and notches and has worked well - see pictures below.






1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JTOOL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2021 at 10:32am
@Dale (Stonelick); Ingenious! Any idea what those brackets were for originally? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2021 at 7:51pm
Jtool:

I pulled them off two pieces of thin plywood - the clips joined them together in an overlapping manner.  Not sure of the purpose or if that was the original function of the clips.
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2021 at 10:20pm
loooks like the little metal peices you get to hang christmas lights
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