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Jacob (WI,ND) 
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 Topic: Big Antique Brass Allis Chalmers Temperature Gauge
Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 8:04pm |
Well this isn't exactly farm related, but it's definitely Allis related so I'll share it here. I picked up this large brass Allis temp gauge recently. Links to Pics:
Today I carefully removed the hand and dial to see what the guts looked like. Pic:
My plan is to get it working again if possible. Worst case it would be inside temp readings. Best case scenario I'd like the sensor outside to read outside temp. And if at all possible have it read in Fahrenheit instead of the Centigrade it is in. Not sure that is even possible. Then get crafty and mount it on a board or something, possibly with other vintage AC brass tag I have. Think kinda a steampunk vibe.
Anyway, now I have the questions. The guts seem to be in working order (everything free and nothing broken), but the sensing unit has been cut off. I have been googling to try to research vintage temp gauges like this, but have been coming up empty. Can anyone explain to me what kind of sensing unit this would have had? It looks like a copper wire/tube with a silver colored center where it was cut off.
This appears to be a fancy spiral bimetallic thermometer. But is the sensing unit needed to function? The reason I ask, I did some initial experiments to see if the guts were functioning/reading. Placed gauge in fridge, let cool to the 35* F I have it set at, from the 66* room temp it was at. No noticeable movement on the pointer. Then I placed it on top of one of my hot water radiators of my house heating system and let it get up to temp, again no real noticeable movement in pointer. I thought just the air temp differences from these extremes would register in the bimetallic spring, but they don't seem to be. Which makes me wonder if there is more I don't know about the sensing unit?
Now for the neat part. You may have noticed the two screw terminals on the bottom left of the gauge. These are connected to wires which lead one to the pointer, and the other to a hairspring attached to the red fixed "max temp" pointer. So, When the pointer goes up the dial enough to reach the max level, it makes contact with the hairspring and connects the circuit. This would be connected to an alarm system of some sort (bell,light?) as a warning to check the gauge I imagine?
At least this is what it looks like to me. Feel free to educate me if I'm way off. Again, I have not been able to find any information as to what kind of alarm system it would have been connected to this gauge.
I have also not found what this gauge may have been used ON. If anyone has any insight, I'd love to hear! The max temp was set to 80*C which is 176*F and I can tell that has not been changed. That may be a clue as to its use?
Thanks for looking.
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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PaulRoidt(WI)
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Location: Montello WI
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 8:33pm |
Jacob,
It works similar to at thermometer that the doctor takes your temp with, with the exception of instead off the fluid rising in the tube, the pressure rises in a confined space and causes the spiral tube to expand causing the needle to move through the mechanical linkage.
It was most likely used as a limit switch in some kind of processing system.
We have several pressure and vacuum gauges of similar construction.
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 8:58pm |
so the wire the to missing sensing unit is really a tube, and is supposed to be hollow and sealed at the end? Would there be anything in this like the mercury in a thermometer tube, or just air? Any fixing this at this point, or is this a lost cause? would it work if a sealed tube was attached again I wonder?
I never thought of a limit switch, that is probably right. I have a vacuum gauge as well. little smaller. Don't think I ever opened that one up to see what the guts looked like. Might have to go do that now out of curiosity...
Edit: I just dug out and looked at my other gauge again. It's actually a Relay Oil gauge, not vacuum. I didn't want to mess up the pointer, as that gauge is in really nice shape, that is why I never took that one apart.
Edited by Jacob (WI,ND) - 02 Mar 2019 at 9:07pm
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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PaulRoidt(WI)
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Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 10:04pm |
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Yes probably mercury.
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Bob-Maine
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 8:04am |
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Jacob,
Just looking at the picture of the inners makes me think it is a bimetallic coil which moves with temp. change. Is it possible that the linkage is not free to move? The changes in a bimetallic coil would not produce much force to move the needle and any resistance might hold it in place. Just my thoughts. Thanks for sharing it with us. Bob@allisdowneast
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I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not sure.
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IBWD MIke
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 9:08am |
Some similar items located at The House On The Rock in Wisconsin.  
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johnkc
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 9:25am |
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Cool gauge, it uses a Bourdon tube, the coil is not bimetal, that coil is hollow and internal pressure flexes it, giving you needle movement. If you can open the end of the cut off tube and use compressed air directed in the tube. I’ll bet the needle will move. Be conservative on the amount of air pressure.
Edited by johnkc - 04 Mar 2019 at 2:15pm
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I support the development of hybrid automobiles and alternative fuels as I need DIESEL fuel for my ALLIS CHALMERS!
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Location: Kenmare, ND
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 11:06am |
Thanks guys! Those gauges at the house on the rock are cool, were they hooked up to something or just on display? I know they have a big carousal and crazy stuff like that there. I was there when I was really young, don't really remember much except going out on the enclosed glass floor point thing. That was cool.
I am fairly sure now this is a bourdon tube, and not a bimetallic spring. It makes sense that it is not registering since the bulb has been cut off.
I may try the air pressure applied idea, how little pressure are we talking here?
How would you all go about fixing this if it was yours? Besides sending it out to be professionally repaired. This is just a fun project, if I can fix it cheap myself great, otherwise I'll just put it back together and have it be a static display for the wall. It's not like I need it for a piece of machinery I'm restoring, that would be a different story.
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 12:55pm |
OK, the 'spiral spring thing' is called a 'Bourdon tube' (sp?) used a LOT in old coke machines and coolers. Vrey ,very common.. but yeah, always a but... You can't just add the missing cutoff portio and get it to work. The whole bulb---tubing----spiral is ONE calibrated unit. What I'd do is spend 2-3 weeks ,if need be, to locate a replacement. Try old HVAC companies, repair shops..they still fix stuff, might have 'guts' layin around. The B tube comes out as an assembly, might have mfr #s on it!
If I couldn't source a suitable replacement, I'd design/build a PIC computer and servo to actuate the 'needle'.$20 in parts..lotsa labor,kinda fun though. I would NOT damage the case or outside..it's waaaaaay tooooooo NEAT !!
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 2:05pm |
 jaybmiller wrote:
You can't just add the missing cutoff portion and get it to work. The whole bulb---tubing----spiral is ONE calibrated unit. |
I was afraid this was the answer, but was hoping there would be a way to fix it... even if unconventional.
jaybmiller wrote:
I'd design/build a PIC computer and servo to actuate the 'needle'.$20 in parts..lotsa labor,kinda fun though. |
This has me intrigued, tell me more  Keep in mind I know nothing about how computers actually work, besides "magic"  I assume this would be like taking a modern thermometer sensor with a digital readout and somehow converting it to operate the needle? I'm guessing if going this route one could have it converted to F at that point too? With the scale on the dial, 0-110 C, this would make more sense for reading outside temps if converted to F. In this part of the country we spend months at or below 0 F, so if in C the amount of time we are under 32*F (0*C) I wouldn't be able to use the thermometer half the year.  Ok, maybe not half, but you get the picture
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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IBWD MIke
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 3:16pm |
[QUOTE=Jacob (WI,ND)]Thanks guys! Those gauges at the house on the rock are cool, were they hooked up to something or just on display? I know they have a big carousal and crazy stuff like that there. I was there when I was really young, don't really remember much except going out on the enclosed glass floor point thing. That was cool.
I can't remember if they were hooked up or not. It is a neat place to visit. This was in there too, not sure what it is. 
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 5:50pm |
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Or you could gut out the case..... buy a 6 inch diameter thermometer at Wal Mart for $5.... mount it inside and put your FACE back on the outside... Then put your Needle Dial onto the new thermo....... and it should be approx. calibrated to degree F.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 7:23pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
Or you could gut out the case..... buy a 6 inch diameter thermometer at Wal Mart for $5.... mount it inside and put your FACE back on the outside... Then put your Needle Dial onto the new thermo....... and it should be approx. calibrated to degree F. |
That was my initial plan. And it may come back around to that. Sometimes a guy has to try the hard way around first, LOL! There are a couple difficulties with this plan though, first all thermometers are NOT calibrated the same. Hold a straight edge from 0 through the center and see what number is opposite, or 180* from 0. In my case it is about 70*, so I need a sweep from 0-70* in 180*. Now go and look at a selection of new thermometers, you will see that they all are different ranges of an 180* sweep. If I could find one that matches it would be a relatively easy conversion (and nothing would be ruined in the process, it could be restored back some day)
The other down side is that with the cheap bimetallic spring thermometer, it would be only reading inside temp (and not even great at that being sealed inside the heavy brass case), where I would really prefer to be able to put the censer outside for an outside reading.
Sigh, I fear there may be no great simple solutions for this dilemma.
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 7:25pm |
So I've been doing a little reading, and it sounds like these CAN be repaired. Here is one article, and a friend sent me another that says almost exactly the same thing:https://www.ply33.com/Repair/tempgaugeAnother article talks about soldering a brass machine nut to fill the system (which is still intact but lost fluid) inserting some ether/starter fluid with a syringe, and plugging the nut with a brass machine bolt with Teflon tape and dope to seal it up. test and insert more or less to calibrate.But I got to thinking, even if I repaired this, is it all for not? These sensing units are meant to be in liquid (oil, water). Are they going to read air temp like I want? Am I back to engineering a new system that can read air temp?
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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