This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | ||||||
The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
Allis B with melted lead in the oil pan. |
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Author | ||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 8:04pm |
|
I have a 1942 Allis B. That stopped running while cutting hay yesterday. It looks as though the oil pump stopped working and the connecting rod bearings are destroyed. The bearings probably have .060 of play on the crank shaft. In the oil pan there was what looked like lots of chunks and blobs of melted lead. I didn't have a magnet to test if it was magnetic out in the field and forgot to bring a piece home to test it so I am not sure it was lead but it sure looked like it. Is that lead(probably babbitt) the facing from the bearing inserts in the connecting rods? Or is it from somewhere else in the engine? |
||
Sponsored Links | ||
KMAG
Orange Level Access Joined: 26 May 2020 Location: Elizabethtown, Points: 655 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Babbit would be bearing material from the crankshaft and/or camshaft. If aluminum, it is from a piston(s).
Either way, it is very bad news for the engine. |
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Is there babbitt anywhere in a B engine? Is there aluminum in a B engine? Is there a facing on the connecting rod bearings? Something has allowed there to be about .060 of play between the crank and connecting rod insert and I am guessing it is whatever the bearing inserts are faced with, but I don't know if they have a facing. |
||
Alberta Phil
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Alberta, Canada Points: 3649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The bearing shells are usually a steel back lined with babbit. If yours got hot enough, the babbit melted out and that's what is in the pan. Babbit is a soft tin/lead alloy with a relatively low melting point.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thank you. That is what I assumed was where the material came from but I couldn't find information online or through the manual saying that the bearings were lined with babbitt so I figured I would ask here where someone would know for sure. |
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
So now that I know where the metal is coming from, would it do any more damage to the engine to polish out the scratches with some fine emery paper on the crank and slap new bearings in and run it? I know it wouldn't be the best for the new bearings but I want this tractor up and running NOW and don't want to pull the engine until winter to have the crank ground and replace the oil pump. (it looks like the pump still works as long as I prime it)
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Polishing the journals will be fine, as long as there are not big groves or spalling... You pick any deposits off the journals ,then polish with emery .... small scratches are not a major problem ....
I would look at the MAINS also ......... cam shaft bearings a brass, not babbit ... you might see that it turns smoothly. ALso this is a BYPASS FILTER system... and it is SPLASH LUBED.. the cam is hollow and has holes in it that SHOOT oil toward the bottom of pistons and run down the rods.. Not direct oil pressure to the bearings.... and the filter just takes 15% of the total oil flow, filters it, and dumps back to sump.....
|
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
also note that the connecting rods dont all go in the same way.. Two face the cam and the other two the opposite way... Bearing on the rod is OFFSET one way to get clearance by the center Main Bearing.
#1 MAIN has a thrust built into the bearing.. You might check END SHAKE of the crank and make sure it is not excessive... suppose to be around .005 inch.
|
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I would prefer not to take the main bearings apart. The crank shaft has no up and down or side to side play(that I can tell) But it does have excessive end play. I am assuming the main bearings are still OK, and the end play was that way when I bought the tractor. I will have to take a closer look at how the cam shaft is mounted and its bearings. Can you explain the splash lubed part a bit better? The only splash lubed engines I have first hand experience with small engines where there is a dipper on the connecting rod or the gear for the governor throws oil on everything.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I kept them all facing the direction they were when the came out of the engine. However I think the front one may have been in backwards. All the pistons have a small notch in the skirt and on the rear three that notch was facing the front. On the front piston it was facing the rear. I don't know if that notch is supposed to be lined up in a specific direction(I know a similar notch matters on two cycle engines)
|
||
MACK
Orange Level Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
My guess is bearings started coming apart, then bearing parts got in oil pump. As I always say, (no short cuts) might as well do it right. MACK
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
"splash lube" was probably not the best term to use... The OIL PUMP is mounted to the back of the cam shaft... The pump output is 85% down the hollow cam shaft and 15% goes OUT the 1/4 inch pipe, thru the bell housing , thru the oil FILTER, and DUMP to sump..
The 85% of the pump output goes down the hollow cam.. Cam has holes in it that point at the bottom of the pistons.. Oil SHOOTS out the holes at the piston, onto the wrist pin, and drips down onto the connecting rod bearings. The cam also has holes in it to lube the 3 cam bearings directly... and there are 3 passage ways to the mains , from the cam, to lube the mains directly.... You maintain about 10- 15 psi in the system at the FILTER... The filter is stuffed with cotton and has HIGH restrictions (backpressure)... If the filter center tube is gone, or the filter is paper instead of cotton, you might have 50% of the oil LOST thru the filter and back to sump.. That is stealing FLOW from the hollow cam shaft...
Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Sep 2022 at 10:20pm |
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
main and rod bearings are SHIMMED for clearance.... |
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
corbinstein
Orange Level Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 796 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I'll add my .02c.
Check the filter for the little "Stand Pipe" up inside it that's part of the filter Base housing. Someone should be able to post an image please. If that is missing, don't run it until you block off the filter infeed line, or replace the pipe. Otherwise, it'll continue to starve the engine if it is missing. |
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
corbin brings up a good question... WHY did you loose pressure ? Normally the PUMP does not just QUIT PUMPING , and now it is OK ? Possibly the pin drive broke ? Or the filter is WRONG ? or the 1/4 inch tube up the center of the filter is GONE ? Or the suction screen in the oil pan was plugged with crud ?
|
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 604 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Any engine that lost oil flow long enough to melt the babbit out of the rod bearings will have debris scattered throughout the rest of the engine as well.
Only the most desperate need would induce me to not do a complete teardown and thorough cleaning of that engine, even if it meant eating beans for a month. |
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The pipe is in there and it is the correct filter. My guess is the check valve on the pump is damaged. When I primed the pump it worked began working again.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think the check valve in the pump is what caused the pump to stop working. When I prime it it works fine.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
It isn't a money issue, it is more of a "I don't have enough hay for the winter yet" issue.
|
||
TomC
Orange Level Access Joined: 24 Nov 2017 Location: Hillsboro, MO Points: 1544 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I don't know where in Wisconsin you are but there are several on craigslist ranging from $3,500.00 and down that look pretty good, buy another one, finish your hay up and rebuild the B over the winter, then you have two of them to use,, if I had it my way I'd have a tractor for every implement.
|
||
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 604 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
That qualifies as desperate need in my book. Clean it up best you can and git'er done. Best wishes |
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I am out at the farm measuring the journals on the crankshaft. Three of them are measuring at 1.934 to 1.932.
The fourth is 1.929 to 1.931. I tried to measure each one in 8 different spots to get a somewhat accurate idea of how warn they are but with the crank still in the tractor it is hard to get measurements on all of them. The standard bearings are for 1.937. I think I will order standard bearings and crush shims and they should fit even if I have to shorten the bearings as the manual suggests in situations where a proper fix isnt possible. I need to take a closer look at the cam shaft yet. |
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The camshaft has .015 of play up and down. And none I can measure side to side at the front of the engine. It got too dark to measure the play at the back of the engine.
I am not sure if that .015 is from running it without oil or from 80 years of the pushrod putting down force on it. I have to check the manual this evening to see how far out of spec it is. |
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
you are not going to see much on the cam unless you pull it out...
getting the right clearance on the bearings with the shims is most important.
|
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If you know you are going to have excess clearances and you want more oil flow / spray to the bearing, you could block off the filter and get an extra 15% more flow internal... I would retain the pressure gauge so you can see what you really got, and look for pressure loss ( like the original problem).
|
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
At this point I got to the cam shaft but don't know how to get it out so have to look at the manual to figure it out. I figured measuring the play in place will start to give me an idea of how bad it is.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
There are two holes on the tube going into the filter, one on the tip and one near the tip but on the side. My thought was I if I could find a screw that fit snug in one of those holes I could use it to temporarily block the flow. Another option was a piece of thick shrink tube to block the hole on the side of the pipe. I have to do some reading in the manual to figure out how to get the cam out and the cam bearings.
|
||
Hillmann
Silver Level Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Wisconsin Points: 206 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
To remove the cam does it just pull out the front of the engine? It was getting dark when I got to that point so I just tried to give it a small pull and when it didn't come out I assumed there was more to getting it out.
|
||
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77700 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
all of the cam followers set on the cam and the pushrods set on top of that, and the rocker arm on top of the HEAD pushes down on everything.... NO, you can not just pull the cam out the front... It normally takes some effort when the motor is in the engine stand, upside down....
your getting in pretty deep when you pull the cam out... Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Sep 2022 at 8:10pm |
||
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
||
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Location: CECIL WI Points: 1698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The spec for oil clearance for the cam is .002"-.004", .015" is way out of spec. But given your situation, you will have to run it the way it is. Where are you in WI? I am between Green Bay and Wausau and run an unofficial Allis-Chalmers dealer. I have some .0025" rod bearings here that will work better than STD for the specs you measured. I also have gaskets, reground crank and lots of other parts to get you back going asap! I don't have a running engine to drop in though.
|
||
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
||
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |