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Allis B adjusting crank end play

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Luke114 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 9:50am
The crank grinding shop pulled the gear away from the journal about 1/8" for grinding clearance.  Any pointers on setting back up?  The book just says "adjust".  My thoughts were to pull the gear all the way off, then press/hammer/cuss it back on after some heat.  Not sure yet how much of a press fit there is, but it seems tight...more than a small 2 jaw puller would budge.  Will need a regular bearing puller I suspect.

Can I set the clearance just using the thrust bearing with the crank on the bench?  Or do I need to have it bolted up and the rod cap torqued?  I'm a little worried about driving it on after heating it, then trying to adjust before things seize up.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 10:07am
i set my crank in the block with all the bearings... then measured the end shake.. subtract what you want to get to speck..... then pulled the gear off and machined the backside so it would press back on and reduce the endshake to the spec..( i have a small lathe)... Seems like a 2 jaw puller was enough for removal.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 11:38am
For the job to be done properly, the gear should be removed and then the surface that the gear is pressed up against is ground accordingly for what is needed to get correct end play after gear is pressed on. The gear is the other end of the two surfaces that determine the end play. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 11:52am
If the crankshaft was properly ground the gear should be pressed back to the step on as far as it will go. No need to remove it. If you slot a piece of metal and slide it over the crankshaft in front of the gear you could slide a piece of pipe over the shaft and safely pound it back to the step. You should end up with .001 to .0015 between the back of the gear and the thrust bearing measuring with a feeler gage.

Any experienced crankshaft grinder would know the distance between the inside edge of the journal and the step.

Edited by Dick L - 10 Feb 2020 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luke114 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 12:13pm
thanks, guys.  That helps knowing that it should be pressed to the step.  I think I'll need to get it pulled first and clean up the shaft because it seems tighter than what you are describing.  The crank grinder didn't measure and set it up for me.  It was returned with a tag attached saying to press the gear back on to set the end play.

.001 to .005 is what the book says.
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Dick L View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by Luke114 Luke114 wrote:

thanks, guys.  That helps knowing that it should be pressed to the step.  I think I'll need to get it pulled first and clean up the shaft because it seems tighter than what you are describing.  The crank grinder didn't measure and set it up for me.  It was returned with a tag attached saying to press the gear back on to set the end play.

.001 to .005 is what the book says.


Best to drive back on first and measure. He would not measure the correct amount with the gear back to the step. I would bet he has a digital readout on his machine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMiller/NC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 7:11pm
Asked this same question just a couple of months ago, following the advice I got here.. this is what I did.....Crank gear was on against the shoulder of crank shaft, used feeler gauge to determine amount of end play, was about .020 which is way too much.  Removed crank shaft and pressed gear from shaft, using a Harbor Freight hydraulic press, didn't seem hard to move, I think a gear puller should do the job.  Placed gear in lathe with the counter bore facing out, making sure there wasn't any wobble in gear, removed .017 from bottom of counter bore.  Reinstalled the gear on crank shaft and in the engine, reinstalled main bearing caps and rechecked end play.  Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2020 at 9:54am
Works that way but the crankshaft grinder takes it off the shaft step.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2020 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Dick L Dick L wrote:

Works that way but the crankshaft grinder takes it off the shaft step.
 
 Don't you mean? A GOOD crank grinder takes it off the crankshaft step.
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2020 at 11:33am
Originally posted by PaulB PaulB wrote:

Originally posted by Dick L Dick L wrote:

Works that way but the crankshaft grinder takes it off the shaft step.

 
 Don't you mean? A GOOD crank grinder takes it off the crankshaft step.


It don't normally take many misses until you are no longer a crank grinder but a recipient of crank calls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2020 at 12:44pm
While we're on the subject...does anyone remember "Bite my crank" or was that a local thing? 40+ years ago...
Couldn't help it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 7:47am
The shop I use to grind my crankshafts will remove the gear and machine the crank for the proper thrust. I set the crankshaft outside over night and yesterday I warmed the gear to 450 for an hour. Took the gear out and set it on the crankshaft without the use of a hammer. The thrust measurement was correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 7:53am
i have only had to do it twice... No grinder shop in the area... AT home i did exactly what TIm Miller said.. you get the same results on thrust.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Lon(MN) Lon(MN) wrote:

The shop I use to grind my crankshafts will remove the gear and machine the crank for the proper thrust. I set the crankshaft outside over night and yesterday I warmed the gear to 450 for an hour. Took the gear out and set it on the crankshaft without the use of a hammer. The thrust measurement was correct.
In my opinion 450˚ is too hot. You could risk changing the hardness. I used to set the hot plate with oil to about 200˚ maybe a bit more, don't remember exactly. If the gear turned color it's too hot. Now that I think of it about 150˚ may have been the temp. I think at the shop way back we had some low temp solder that would melt at 150 and when installing a ring gear on a fly wheel it was warmed enough by a torch until it would melt that solder. I just warmed until I saw a slight amount of smoke coming from a ring gear. On a crank gear I used a hot plate and I'm sure the temp was nowhere near 450˚.

Man I babbled a lot there.Ermm

And of course my numbers could be all wrong.


Edited by Lonn - 12 Feb 2020 at 8:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 9:34am
I would have to be at the plant and pull a chart but I am sure it would have to be more than double that hot to start to reduce the hardness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 9:38am
OK looking on the net it looks like 300˚C (actually it gives a range for steel 300˚C to 650˚C ... grades of steel???) may start to affect hardness so that equates to 572˚F. So 450˚ should be OK but for me I'm sure I never cooked anything above 250 and it works good.


Edited by Lonn - 12 Feb 2020 at 9:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 9:45am
Now I found this answer on some website I never heard of


"There are three key temperature which may affect the properties of steel. As mentioned in the accepted answer the recrystallization temperature is the most significant as it can potentially affect any steel, especially ones which have been cold worked to improve their properties or have a high alloy content eg stainless, chrome-moly steels and some castings.

The second consideration is the tempering temperature. This only applies to steels which have been heat treated, generally cutting tools, dies, springs and certain other very high strength/hardness parts. The tempering range can vary between 180 and 300 C or up to 600C for high speed steels. Heating above the tempering temperature will remember the steel and consequently soften it. this is usually only a concern for finished components although some types of stock are supplied hardened and tempered, typically high alloy tool steels.

The final concern is that very high temperatures, approaching the melting point of the steel may cause the growth of very large crystals of even deep oxidation of the surface. This is a concern for all grades but particularly those containing chromium.

Finally, while many hot rolled steel grades can be hot worked without any loss of mechanical properties some have a narrow working window (red short) and the manufacturers data should be consulted in all cases."

LINK>>> https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/35/at-what-temperature-do-i-risk-altering-the-structure-of-steel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 9:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 11:37am
To anneal hardened steel it normally is held at the charted temperature over 30 minutes. I don't have my own heat treat but having a mold building shop since 1978 I have worked with heat treating services to anneal and reharden mold inserts. Diamond hard steel is something I have never worked with. Plastic mold inserts were kept to 45 Rockwell or under due to cracking under clamping under high clamping pressure. The crankshaft timing gear is not all that hard as I have removed dings with a file. It is most likely machined from stock at the proper composition. I would guess a high chromium content.          

Edited by Dick L - 12 Feb 2020 at 11:55am
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