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allis b 3pt

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10ptjim View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 May 2022 at 4:37pm
got a '40 B with hydraulics, tried to hook up 6 ft blade ,wont pick it up ,too big? I know light duty tractor may a 4 or 5ft? system works good with nothing on it ,thinking just to heavy, Thoughts?
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 5:06pm
I have a 6 ft blade on a B and an IB.... What are you using for a cylinder ?  If using the ONE SMALL cylinder it is less than 1 inch diameter but has 3200 psi  on it.. You could looked at the linkage setup and see how much PUSH you have on your lift bracket... Post a photo.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 5:15pm
here is a picture off the NET of a B with an aftermarket hitch lifting a Disc... Dont know if he has one or two cylinders ........ but it shows it can be done...

my IB has a larger CA lift cylinder on it..




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 7:11pm
Those B tractors were borderline unsafe when the FACTORY 2 way plow were installed without any front end weight. When you put on a 3pt that moves the implement rearward, that MUST be counterbalanced with front weight or the results may not end well.  
 If you wanted a 3pt you should have just gotten a Ford
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 9:02pm
its got one small ram, trouble getting picture to load,just need small blade to level roads in woods and scrape the drive once in awhile
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 9:14pm
if the blade is not too heavy it should lift it.... The ram pushes on an arm probably attached to the rock shaft ?  if you lengthen that arm a couple inches and get more mechanical advantage it has more lifting force... you can also have a ram on each side... The CA cylinder is bigger (diameter) .. i have that on an IB... I also have a modified WD45 ram ( shortened) on a B... and a B with two cylinders.... One cylinder can be marginal , depending on the blade weight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 9:21pm
blade is quite heavy,bought this 3 point of tractor at implement store, ram is mounted more vertical and pushes up on rock shaft bracket, will get daughter to help with picture upload and will be easier to see the configuration and ram , thanks for the replies thus far
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 9:24pm
here is a picture of the little cylinder pushing on the arm welded to the horizontal rock shaft... lets say the arm is 4 inches long from its pivot bolt to the rock shaft.. If you lengthen that arm 2 inches to  6 inch total, you will have 50% more lift force, but not as much total "lift" or rotation of the rock shaft..




another option is to put another cylinder on the other side... or increase the cylinder size.. Here is a LARGER CA cylinder in place of the smaller B cylinder..  Has about 3 times the lift force.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 11:01pm
i am building one right now for my c ,mostly biulding it like the the ones for sale but i am useing the two little lift cylinders hoping it can lift a 50 gallon spray rig i have the two engine side wieghts for mine
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 4:42pm
Jim..... here is a very very basic idea of how the linkage works...

The picture shows the back of the tractor ( vertical left line) with the top arms, cylinder and lower arms all attached... Lets say the cylinder pushes on the upper arm about 8 inches out from the tractor and the length of the upper arm is 16 inches ( double) and connects to the lower arm that is 32 inches long ( 4 times further out than the cylinder mount)...   So basically at the OUTER EDGE of the lower arm you can lift 1/4 of what the cylinder can lift at the 8 inch mark..

The small cylinder is 3/4 inch.... area of the piston is radius **2 x PIE .... or .375 x .375 x 3.14 = .44 square inches.... and your pressure is 3400 pounds PER square inch... so the piston can push .44 x 3400 # =  1500 pounds  ..... (remember, GENERIC idea)..




Edited by steve(ill) - 12 May 2022 at 4:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2022 at 5:05pm
Old farmer cross the road, used to drag a C-channel/ chains  up and down his looooong driveway every Sunday (after church, before brunch). That driveway was GREAT !
Might be a viable option for you ?
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 9:16pm
Thanks so much Steve, will get picture tomorrow. possible the pump needs a rebuild, pulled this thing out of a barn thats been hibernating for 20 or so years, moves ram a little jerky on way up with no implement on it, will see if daughter can load short video too. Thanks guys for the replies
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 9:44pm
there is a 1 inch pipe plug by your left foot to fill the transmission and hydraulics.. make sure the oil is up to the bottom of the threaded plug .... If the oil looks like crap, there are three  1/2 inch pipe plugs on the bottom of the transmission, differential and PTO housings that you can drain and refill... Holds about 8 quarts.. Should by 20 wt, or universal tractor fluid or hy/ trans fluid, or ISO 32  or 46 hydraulic oil... etc.

JERKY means the oil is low, air in system, dirty thick oil, or packing dragging bad... MIght spray some WD40 on the cylinder rod  and see if that helps the packing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 8:08pm
Heres a picture of what i have, ram seems good , pump maybe needs rebuild, pto needs to turn to get pump to work,is that normal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveSB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 8:56pm
Yes, on a B the pto must be on or engaged so that it is turning for the hydraulic pump to operate.
1948 C, 1953 CA, 1948 WD, 1961 D-17 Series 2 Diesel, 1939 WC, 1957 D14
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 9:08pm
so if you compare your photo to my picture, you can see that your cylinder pushes on the top link maybe 5 - 6 inches from the rockshaft, not 8 as in my drawing.. If your drawbar is 32 inches long and your cylinder to rock shaft is 5.5 inches that is 1/6 ratio... So if your cylinder puts out 3400 psi, or 1500 # force, then you can lift 1/6 of that or 250 pounds.... You blade probably weights that much so you are MARGINAL..... You might want to look for a 1.25 or 1.5 inch cylinder and replace the little B unit.

For a test, take off the blade and see if the hydraulics will lift YOU as you stand on the end of the lower arms ??


Edited by steve(ill) - 14 May 2022 at 9:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveSB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 9:13pm
I just saw you said lift was jerky when lifting with no load on it.
I’ve seen that and sounds like a plunger inside the pump is sticking and not pumping properly, if it’s full of good clean fluid.   
Since it’s jerking with no load, I’d make sure it is full of fluid and pull the pump and inspect the plungers on the pump and the cam lobes on the pto shaft for wear. The pump comes off easily and quickly and you can buy or make a new gasket to reinstall pump.   
Could be air in system, but everyone I’ve messed with the air worked it’s way out after a little use and warming up.
I’d guess pump plunger problem that needs to be addressed, whether it picks that blade up or not after repair.   
Good luck, keep us informed.
1948 C, 1953 CA, 1948 WD, 1961 D-17 Series 2 Diesel, 1939 WC, 1957 D14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 9:35pm
If you put a gauge on the end of the hose ( remove at cylinder) and you have 3000 psi or better, then you have a few options..

--Remount the top of the cylinder further out ( maybe 9 inches) from the rock shaft point.
--get a larger cylinder and replace the smaller 3/4 inch unit ... maybe like this..

remember, you pump MAY put out 3200 psi ( or about)... a bigger cylinder will not require that pressure to lift the blade.. you ONLY see the 3200 psi when you STALL OUT the pump at FULL CYLINDER EXTENSION.






Edited by steve(ill) - 14 May 2022 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveSB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 9:53pm
Steve,
That’s a good idea using a test gauge.   
1948 C, 1953 CA, 1948 WD, 1961 D-17 Series 2 Diesel, 1939 WC, 1957 D14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 7:37pm
bought a smaller implement,a one tooth ripper , king kutter brand ,works great. maybe 6 ft blade just to heavy for ram we have, did clean out pump ,change fluid(didnt need) but did anyway.  if i move lower shock mount out towards end of drawbar in picture ,will that get me a little more push for something heavier? Thank you all for your help in this,not sure what we would do without this sight.  oh yea, pressure gauge is on the way, ordered one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 10:47pm
 if i move lower shock mount out towards end of drawbar in picture ,will that get me a little more push for something heavier?

Not much gain by moving the bottom of the cylinder.. Your trying to get the TOP of the cylinder out further from the rock shaft and closer to the end of the upper LIFT ARM.. Maybe you could c-clamp an angle iron or something 3-4  inches further out and pin the cylinder to it and "TEST" .... You only move the BOTTOM out further to keep the cylinder pushing mover VERTICAL... But the TOP DISTANCE FROM THE ROCK SHAFT is what is important.



No




Edited by steve(ill) - 18 May 2022 at 10:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 9:48am
If it's jerky, there's something awry with the pump and fluid situation... like the fluid is aerated.
I don't know the B pump internal setup, but I'm THINKING it uses a same or similar unloader mechanism that appears on the WD/WD45...  if so, the unloader is probably responding to aeration as well.

Drain the fluid, run the ram all the way down... then refill it with new fluid, cycle the ram several times, lower the ram, top the fluid, and try again.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 10:17am
The B/C pump is a 2 plunger setup with double lobes for each plunger. Being a plunger pump, it is inherently jerky. however if it it excessive probably the valves to one of the plungers are not seating properly. 
After you get your pump working properly, the simple solution to not being able to lift much would be make a mount for a second cylinder opposite the one that is there, or replace the B/C cylinder with a larger CA one. Changing the geometry  might make it lift more, however you will loose lift height. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 12:32pm
I think he has the pump and system working... Cylinder just needs more PUSH or bigger...

bought a smaller implement,a one tooth ripper , king kutter brand ,works great. maybe 6 ft blade just to heavy for ram we have, did clean out pump ,change fluid(didnt need) but did anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 12:36pm
if your blade is TOO HEAVY, you should hear the valve going over RELIEF pressure as you pull up on the handle, and the blade does not lift............. you could try to manually lift the back of the blade while someone is using the hydraulics... and see if you are WAY OFF, or just need a little more lift force.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2022 at 9:01pm
Ok , update time. Got pressure gauge, reads 2400 max pulling on lever, when lifting lever up almost sounds to be grinding a bit,unit will lift king kutter single ripper tooth assembly no problem but with brother standing on it NO GO a little but not all the way up.. SOOOOO,my thoughts are to have pump rebuilt first to get pressure to 3400 where it should be ,correct? then check pressure again then get ram as Steve posted form tractor supply ,new hose and cross fingers,  then move top of ram if still not lifting blade,(will go to 5 ft blade if the need be)  Thoughts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2022 at 9:37pm
Going from 2400 psi to 3200 psi  would be 30% MORE LIFT... That might be enough to move the blade...   There is a procedure to  PUNCH A PLUG  in the valve to SET the pressure.. That could be all it needs... But a disassembly / clean/ reset is not a bad idea.  Something made it DROP from 3200 down to 2400.... could be some WEAR.

The GRINDING noise is the relief valve popping inside when you hit MAX pressure.


Edited by steve(ill) - 21 May 2022 at 9:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2022 at 9:54pm
If you want to try to ADJUST the pressure without a rebuild... This is the procedure.

Remove plug #6 on top of the valve.. Use a machinist ruler or depth mike to measure down to  PISTON #9 in the photo below... Should be  .565 inch deep.. If you bump it down .030 inch, you can reinstall the plug and retest the pressure setting.. Should increase if everything else inside is working....

When you LIFT and then let go of the lever, does the implement "STAY" in the lift position for a period of time ? .... It should stay UP in position if things are not WORN inside.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10ptjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2022 at 10:16pm
The implement does stay up with no problem, also i did move the stabilizers between the upper and lower lift arms . you can see in picture i posted there was a lot of threads exposed ,arms are more parellel to each other now, seemed to help. i can try your FIX tomorrow after work, thanks a bunch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2022 at 7:28pm
When we go to do this, how do you move that plug? Is it threaded or ? Just wondering what keeps it from moving back up? 
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