Allis 670T timing

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   Hey Everyone, 
I have an early 80's Champion road grader with an Allis 670T motor that I had purchased with known issues. The original theory was that the motor was a repower that had roughly 3500 hours on it, after some brief online research it seemed like it was probably due for Injectors or a pump. The symptoms were lack of power, excessive smoke, and hard starting. Another thing that was suspect was the timing. I previously replaced the injectors and while they were in need of service that didn't correct the problem. Now I've replaced the pump, but am having problems determining correct timing. The Fiat Allis book I have actually has about 4 different timing options depending on the motor and pump. The pump is a roosa master, DM4629JF3865 and my book says to set it at 18 degrees btdc. I tried that and the motor smoked worse than ever. Next I tried 24 degrees and that didn't do anything. 
After some reading I came across some info about the damper pulley slipping so I'm heading out to pull the #1 injector and compare the marks to TDC. Aside from than........
Can anyone provide me with a solid # for timing on this pump? Its really leaving me scratching my head on this one. 
Any input would be greatly appreciated
Thanks!

j

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Silveroddo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 09 Mar 2015 Location: Northern MN Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Silveroddo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Allis 670T timing Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 6:01pm
	Hey Everyone, I have an early 80's Champion road grader with an Allis 670T motor that I had purchased with known issues. The original theory was that the motor was a repower that had roughly 3500 hours on it, after some brief online research it seemed like it was probably due for Injectors or a pump. The symptoms were lack of power, excessive smoke, and hard starting. Another thing that was suspect was the timing. I previously replaced the injectors and while they were in need of service that didn't correct the problem. Now I've replaced the pump, but am having problems determining correct timing. The Fiat Allis book I have actually has about 4 different timing options depending on the motor and pump. The pump is a roosa master, DM4629JF3865 and my book says to set it at 18 degrees btdc. I tried that and the motor smoked worse than ever. Next I tried 24 degrees and that didn't do anything. After some reading I came across some info about the damper pulley slipping so I'm heading out to pull the #1 injector and compare the marks to TDC. Aside from than........ Can anyone provide me with a solid # for timing on this pump? Its really leaving me scratching my head on this one. Any input would be greatly appreciated Thanks! j

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DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19509	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 6:17pm
	16 to 18 degrees BTDC would be correct for a DM-4 pump. 24 degrees will make it hammer and start even harder and burn a piston/blow a head gasket.

Adam Stratton Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: SW MO Points: 1363	Post Options Post Reply Quote Adam Stratton Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 6:36pm
	You can take the valve cover off to confirm the marks on the pulley, that way you know that you are at the top of correct stroke instead of being half way off. Edited by Adam Stratton - 09 Mar 2015 at 6:40pm

Silveroddo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 09 Mar 2015 Location: Northern MN Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Silveroddo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 7:17pm
	Thanks for the quick responses, I've got the valve cover off and pulled #1 Injector to verify TDC, seems to be correct. I will have to set it back to 16-18 and see what it does.

SteveM C/IL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7981	Post Options Post Reply Quote SteveM C/IL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2015 at 12:07pm
	These engines don't burn clean as a rule.There is usually a haze which increases under load.

Silveroddo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 09 Mar 2015 Location: Northern MN Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Silveroddo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 9:31pm
	I've got the machine set at 18 degrees, smokes pretty good as its warming up but does seem to run better. Kind of disappointed in how hard starting it is cold though. Would running it around 16 degrees help this? seems like it has to crank for about 30 seconds to get it to pop off at the moment

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19509	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 10:18pm
	16 degrees will help some with cold starts, YES.

SteveM C/IL Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 7981	Post Options Post Reply Quote SteveM C/IL Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 10:54pm
	If they're a little tired and it's below 40deg you'll need a heater or ether or extra cranking time.