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AC C misses above idle, low compression cylinder 2

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AllisChalmersCMan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 10:34am
My C started to miss above 25% throttle and stall above 75% throttle after running under load for a while.  Cylinder 2 droppes to 25 lb pressure 50lb, and the other cylinders have dropped to 37-50lb since a year ago.  I use 15-w30 with STP and Balwin filters.  

First, I think its time for a rebuild, partial or more full.  I live in Southeast Wisconsin just north of the Illinois border south of Lake Geneva WI, West of Kenosha WI, and East of Beloit WI.

Anyone recommend a shop?

Also, and ideas of what I have happening?
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 12:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 1:37pm
If the compression drops as the engine warms up your valve clearance might be too tight. I'd check that now or you may end up burning the valves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 9:09am
i've got a miss at anything but low throttle.  it gets worse at higher throttle and under load, which would be the governer opening up.  I know the timing is off since i put on a new magneto, but I dont know how much.  It ran fine after I got the magneto on though and this is a new problem that came on suddenly.       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dakota Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 9:25am
I'm suprised it will even run with that low of compression. At this point I'd pull the head and have it done. I'd bet your rings are stuck if it doesn't have a ring ridge deglaze the cylinders and rering it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 9:59am
Compression drops as speed increases, or is this just the measurement you've taken over time?

Sounds like valves to me... especially the dropping one cylinder above idle, and more as throttle increases.

What's probably happening, is one intake valve is either lazy (weak spring, gunky guide) or the clearance is too tight, so it's leaking... and once you get it running faster, it's lazy, so it leaks more, which screws up manifold vacuum, causing others to run lean.

Pop the valve cover off and give the rockers a basic finger-wobble on all valves that're down, then push down on every valve that's up.  Turn the engine a full rotation and repeat for the others.  Notice any difference in any?  clearances and spring reactions should all feel about the same.  Valves should snap shut with authority.

Now start the engine, let it idle, and watch each rocker.  Bring it up off idle so it's dropping one.  Take a wooden hammer handle, and place it atop the rocker over each pushrod, one at a time, and lean on it a little.  work your way down.  Does the one missing cylinder pick up?  If so, you found your culprit.  Shut it down, open up clearance a bit, and try again.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 10:34am
Compression tests must be done with all spark plugs removed and the engine at FULL THROTTLE with a battery charger for accurate readings.
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AllisChalmersCMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 4:29pm
How is compression tested at full throttle with all spark plugs removed?  This I need to see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 5:09pm
I think they mean you have to have the throttle butterfly open. You don't try to make it run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 5:42pm
How does the battery charger fit in to a compression test?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chaskaduo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 5:46pm
To keep the battery charge up while you turn her over a few times when taking compression readings on each cylinder. Also make sure you use the correct 6 or 12 volt charger for the battery and the red charger lead to + post on battery and the black neg lead to - post on battery.

Edited by chaskaduo - 25 Aug 2019 at 5:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by AllisChalmersCMan AllisChalmersCMan wrote:

How is compression tested at full throttle with all spark plugs removed?  This I need to see.

Because thats the proceedure for a compression test.....On 2cycle Detroits,you put the tester in place of an injector and ran the engine but thats apples and oranges. Gas engines are not tested running.


Edited by SteveM C/IL - 25 Aug 2019 at 7:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 10:07pm
>>How is compression tested at full throttle with all spark plugs removed?  This I need to see.<<

Stop engine.  Connect appropriate battery charger to battery. Remove all spark plugs.  Advance throttle and choke to fully open position.  Install compression tester to 1# spark plug, engage starter, observe and record gauge pressure.  Move tester to #2, #3, and #4, repeating for each.

When done, disconnect charger, replace all plugs.  Oh, actually... look at each plug... note the color of each plug.  See any that're substantially different?  That's usually an excellent clue towards finding problem areas.  Look at plug gap too, and make sure plugs are all the same type.

After you install all the plugs, start and run the engine.  Spray a little WD-40 or similar on the base of the plug insulator, right where ceramic meets the metal.  If you see bubbles at the crimp, replace the plugs with something other than Champion... don't ask me why Pinch


Edited by DaveKamp - 25 Aug 2019 at 10:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 10:14pm
Another thing you might wanna look into...

Is this a distributor, or magneto ignition?

If distributor, take the cap off, grab the rotor, and wiggle it left right and foreward-back (not up down or twist).  Does it move a little?

It's not unusual for the distributor shaft bushing under the advance mechanism to wear over time.  The previous oil may have been thick enough to keep it from rattling around, but the new oil may have granted it new freedom, and now it's wandering around, and causing the ignition points to not be reliably lifted by the point cam. Same is true for the distributor drive gear... if it's well-worn, it may be that it's rattling against the gears and you're getting inconsistent timing as a result.  On some engines, the oil pump is in the pan directly below the distributor, and the distributor gear's loading is changed by different grade of oil, and of course, multi-vis oils changing with running temperature...
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 8:08am
Thanks for this.  This explains things well, and explains why.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 8:13am
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Another thing you might wanna look into...

Is this a distributor, or magneto ignition?

If distributor, take the cap off, grab the rotor, and wiggle it left right and foreward-back (not up down or twist).  Does it move a little?

It's not unusual for the distributor shaft bushing under the advance mechanism to wear over time.  The previous oil may have been thick enough to keep it from rattling around, but the new oil may have granted it new freedom, and now it's wandering around, and causing the ignition points to not be reliably lifted by the point cam. Same is true for the distributor drive gear... if it's well-worn, it may be that it's rattling against the gears and you're getting inconsistent timing as a result.  On some engines, the oil pump is in the pan directly below the distributor, and the distributor gear's loading is changed by different grade of oil, and of course, multi-vis oils changing with running temperature...


Its a magneto.  I still need to get the timing correct.  This engine was rebuilt at one time and the internal timing gear that connects to the magneto is not in its correct position.  I had to replace the magneto this year and am still fiddling with it to get it timed perfectly.  It starts right up, and hasn't had this new missing problem at higher RPM until recently, and it happened suddenly. I can be running for quite some time and all of a sudden at higher RPM and under load it will start to miss and then stall.  I learned that if I back the throttle down it will keep running, most of the time, or push the clutch in and take it back to idle before starting work again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 8:23am
That sounds like it's running out of gas. Gas in tank isn't flowing fast enough to the carb to keep up to higher HP/speed demands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 10:00am
I would agree with the gas flow issue except that it is missing at anything other than dead slow idle, and there is plenty of gas at the petcock.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 11:16am
Originally posted by AllisChalmersCMan AllisChalmersCMan wrote:

I would agree with the gas flow issue except that it is missing at anything other than dead slow idle, and there is plenty of gas at the petcock.

This doesn't mean that your carburetor isn't gummed up. It's the compression that makes me think otherwise. If that's in-fact the real compression readings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 11:48am
Originally posted by AllisChalmersCMan AllisChalmersCMan wrote:



Its a magneto.  I still need to get the timing correct.  This engine was rebuilt at one time and the internal timing gear that connects to the magneto is not in its correct position. 

 If the drive slot for the magneto is not horizontal when #1 cylinder is at TDC of the compression stroke, you can NEVER get the magneto timed right, period.
 Take to governor apart and rotate the gear till the slot is positioned as mentioned, before even bothering with trying to time it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 12:00pm
Fix the timing issue first, then pull the valve cover and set all valves to proper clearance. Once you get that done, buy a can of Seafoam for the gas tank and take the it out and work it as hard as you can for a couple hours so the Seafoam can do it's job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllisChalmersCMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 8:39am
Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

Originally posted by AllisChalmersCMan AllisChalmersCMan wrote:



Its a magneto.  I still need to get the timing correct.  This engine was rebuilt at one time and the internal timing gear that connects to the magneto is not in its correct position. 

 If the drive slot for the magneto is not horizontal when #1 cylinder is at TDC of the compression stroke, you can NEVER get the magneto timed right, period.
 Take to governor apart and rotate the gear till the slot is positioned as mentioned, before even bothering with trying to time it.

Thanks Tucker.  That's good information and advice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 4:18pm
Check out this page on the magneto timing. Very good explanation. Thanks to Rod!!http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/magtiming/magtiming.htm
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