745C engine swap

I'm in the middle of removing the 11000 engine from my 745C and going to install a 6 71 Detroit that I have. Everything looks pretty straightforward with the exception of mating a flywheel or flex plate from the Detroit to the converter. Any hints or direction? Thank you

Yes their both SAE 2.

Edited by Blazefork - 08 Aug 2023 at 7:33pm

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/allis-745c-what-kind-of-engine.13322/

https://issuu.com/deannarosso/docs/fiat-allis-745c-wheel-loader-parts-catalog

https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/11b-repower-revisited_topic145133.html

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Maybe this will be of help:

uploads/21629/SAE_Flywheel_Housings.pdf

It is also possible to purchase flywheel "blanks" and have drilled to match your crankshaft flange mounting. I'll have to look in my reference files for a vendor, but I have done exactly that in the past.

Edited by Codger - 08 Aug 2023 at 9:44pm

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Thank you for the replies, these were some options I considered but was hoping for a bolt in option

.....if it was easy it wouldn't be as much fun!

The flex plate for the converter would still need a starter ring of some type so your kind of back to using flywheel and or bellhousing made to mount starter somehow .
Affixing the torque converter seems to be just one part of problem , mating up the rest is where the head scratching comes in

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Sounds like you have a 14" dual plate bowl type flywheel utilizing a pull type clutch on the Detroit engine which was very common in truck usage. The SAE companion flange of the flywheel housing distance to flywheel wear surface is standardized for all engines manufacturers complied with. Transmission and torque converter manufacturers then designed to fit their units to the SAE dimensions.

It looks as if the Allis engine used a bowl type flywheel and the flexplate bolted to the perimeter of this flywheel shown here:

Not knowing dimensions of the parts I'm wondering if you could have a machine shop lessen the bowl height flange and drill & tap the correct fastener threads into the existing Detroit flywheel? This may require a spacer ring be fitted to close up distance between the flywheel flange and flexplate, but the theory would be the same; ie, join the parts together.

I don't think I've ever seen a 15" dual disc clutch on a 6-71 engine with an SAE #2 flywheel housing myself. Have seen plenty in the SAE #1 housing however. These did not use a bowl type flywheel. I have seen in older trucks a 13" single disc clutch setup with an SAE #2 flywheel housing with a 4-71 however. This may be what you are after. If you could measure the flange diameters, (inside, and outside) of both your existing flywheels, (Detroit, and Allis) I'll see if I have something around here you could use.

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

While you are attempting to bring things together don't rule out spacing them apart and using another companion flange, (spacer) to bridge the gap between the engine and transmission to gain the clearance(s) required. Arbitrarily speaking a one in thick spacer between the engine and transmission would gain you clearance that could be taken up by a custom flexplate bolting to both the flywheel, and torque converter for drive.

I don't have photos but we converted a 645 from the Allis engine over to an 8.3ltr Cummins that went slick doing this with spacers. I believe that loader is still around but a different owner nowadays. It was worn out beyond reasonable repairs expense when sold to a local farmer, or two.

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

sound to me like that should work. curious where in KS you are at? im an hour west of topeka

Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15

Sounds good, also, I'm about an hour south of Salina.

Is there an opening in the bottom of the transmission housing to allow access to the flex plate mounting fasteners? I'm assuming you would drill and tap 12 .375" X 16tpi threaded holes into the center plate that is affixed to the flywheel at a diameter matching the flex plate mounting bolt circle. This of course for the flex plate to affix to. However, with a bowl type flywheel on the engine, how will you get to the fasteners as I'm thinking they will be inside the bowl area of the flywheel unless the transmission has an access through the bottom of the torque converter housing?

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

I couldn't see any captive nuts or weld tabs on the flex plate from the parts manual I have so assumed they were just holes. The captive fasteners will ease the task nicely. Though I've not done this in the past you could bore a hole and assuming you have an aluminum, or cast iron flywheel housing on the Detroit engine, you could silver solder a rigid electrical conduit connector into a hole you bored through the flywheel housing such as this:

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/conduit-conduit-fittings-raceways/conduit-fittings-supports/sigma-proconnex-trade-rigid-threaded-coupling/02-55082/p-1444430903587-c-9538.htm

and then close the hole with a pipe plug. No dirt entry this way. Of course a plastic, or rubber plug would work also rather than just leaving an open hole.

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

I didn't see a scavenge, or venturi pump in the manual so assumed a dry housing. I don't remember Detroit sealing up the mounting fasteners, a gasket on the rear of the block, or machining for a lip seal for wet usage so something else to consider. Do you have the guide studs to align the flywheel housing to the crankshaft centerline? That has to be pretty close to keep seals doing their job.

A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

The only other thing I can think of that would make this easier is if I could come up with an SAE 2 flywheel for the Detroit that would be a minimum of 2.5 inches thick from where it meets the crank flange to the clutch face, that would eliminate having to install the floating center disc to obtain proper dimensions.The ones I have are 2 inches at best.

I was able to find a Detroit flywheel with adequate meat on it off of a 2 71 that ran an irrigation pump, should be ready to stab the engine in by the end of the week. Thanks again for your help!

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Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 745C engine swap Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 6:56pm
	I'm in the middle of removing the 11000 engine from my 745C and going to install a 6 71 Detroit that I have. Everything looks pretty straightforward with the exception of mating a flywheel or flex plate from the Detroit to the converter. Any hints or direction? Thank you

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Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:19pm
	What flywheel and flywheel housing are on each engine? Are they both SAE flywheel housings?
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:29pm
	Yes their both SAE 2. Edited by Blazefork - 08 Aug 2023 at 7:33pm

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:47pm
	Does the 11000 engine use a standard flywheel or a "Delco" style? If both engines use a standard flywheel making a plate adapter is not difficult in a home shop.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Coke-in-MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41198	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coke-in-MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:49pm
	https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/allis-745c-what-kind-of-engine.13322/ https://issuu.com/deannarosso/docs/fiat-allis-745c-wheel-loader-parts-catalog https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/11b-repower-revisited_topic145133.html
	Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:56pm
	The flywheel currently on the loader is more or less flat with 12 3/8" bolts that secure the converter to the flywheel, while the flywheels I currently have laying around for the Detroit are cup type for a dual disc clutch.

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 9:40pm
	Maybe this will be of help: uploads/21629/SAE_Flywheel_Housings.pdf It is also possible to purchase flywheel "blanks" and have drilled to match your crankshaft flange mounting. I'll have to look in my reference files for a vendor, but I have done exactly that in the past. Edited by Codger - 08 Aug 2023 at 9:44pm
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Coke-in-MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41198	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coke-in-MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 10:53pm
	Seems you could have the cup machined off flywheel and then drilled for converter , or have plate machined to bolt into flywheel for converter to mount to old clutch pressure plate holes .
	Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 1:22pm
	Thank you for the replies, these were some options I considered but was hoping for a bolt in option .....if it was easy it wouldn't be as much fun!

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 5:49pm
	And everybody would be doing it too.....
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Coke-in-MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41198	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coke-in-MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 3:44pm
	The flex plate for the converter would still need a starter ring of some type so your kind of back to using flywheel and or bellhousing made to mount starter somehow . Affixing the torque converter seems to be just one part of problem , mating up the rest is where the head scratching comes in
	Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 6:39pm
	I got everything scattered out on the shop floor today....looks like I'll need to move everything towards the transmission 1/2" as the crank flange is that much deeper from flange of the bell housing on the Detroit. We have a salvage yard with a lot of Detroit stuff near and the next rainy day I'm headed there to see if I can find a flywheel with enough meat on it to make things happen. One I had on hand lacked about a quarter inch. Edited by Blazefork - 10 Aug 2023 at 6:40pm

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 9:58pm
	Sounds like you have a 14" dual plate bowl type flywheel utilizing a pull type clutch on the Detroit engine which was very common in truck usage. The SAE companion flange of the flywheel housing distance to flywheel wear surface is standardized for all engines manufacturers complied with. Transmission and torque converter manufacturers then designed to fit their units to the SAE dimensions. It looks as if the Allis engine used a bowl type flywheel and the flexplate bolted to the perimeter of this flywheel shown here: Not knowing dimensions of the parts I'm wondering if you could have a machine shop lessen the bowl height flange and drill & tap the correct fastener threads into the existing Detroit flywheel? This may require a spacer ring be fitted to close up distance between the flywheel flange and flexplate, but the theory would be the same; ie, join the parts together. I don't think I've ever seen a 15" dual disc clutch on a 6-71 engine with an SAE #2 flywheel housing myself. Have seen plenty in the SAE #1 housing however. These did not use a bowl type flywheel. I have seen in older trucks a 13" single disc clutch setup with an SAE #2 flywheel housing with a 4-71 however. This may be what you are after. If you could measure the flange diameters, (inside, and outside) of both your existing flywheels, (Detroit, and Allis) I'll see if I have something around here you could use.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Aug 2023 at 11:49pm
	I appreciate that, I've got a single and a dual disc SAE 2 flywheel, the single is close to having enough thickness, only lacking about 3/8 of an inch. I'll do some measuring tomorrow and let you know what I need roughly. It's going to need adequate thickness and a little modification in the pilot area, the pilot od and the pilot bearing OD are the same on the converter and on the dual disc flywheel, but lacking the said 1/2 depth. Thanks again for your interest and help.....it's appreciated

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 6:44am
	While you are attempting to bring things together don't rule out spacing them apart and using another companion flange, (spacer) to bridge the gap between the engine and transmission to gain the clearance(s) required. Arbitrarily speaking a one in thick spacer between the engine and transmission would gain you clearance that could be taken up by a custom flexplate bolting to both the flywheel, and torque converter for drive. I don't have photos but we converted a 645 from the Allis engine over to an 8.3ltr Cummins that went slick doing this with spacers. I believe that loader is still around but a different owner nowadays. It was worn out beyond reasonable repairs expense when sold to a local farmer, or two.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 11:44am
	I came up with my answer this morning, if I take the dual disc clutch flywheel, machine the floating center plate to the proper thickness and install it in the flywheel with the locating pins in place, put some countersunk capscrews in to attach it to the flywheel I should be in business. The center OD for the pilot bearing matches the OD of the pilot on the converter. Any reason why this won't work? Thanks again for your time and good advice.

CAL(KS) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3734	Post Options Post Reply Quote CAL(KS) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 12:00pm
	sound to me like that should work. curious where in KS you are at? im an hour west of topeka
	Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 12:04pm
	Sounds like a good plan. I would use at least eight capscrews for securement and then have the flywheel "zero balanced" afterward. I don't see why this wouldn't work as long as you have access to the Fasteners to hold the flex plate and flywheel together.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 7:26pm
	Sounds good, also, I'm about an hour south of Salina.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 7:27pm
	I'll probably either use the starter hole or make a small 2 bolt cover in the opposite side of the bell housing, looks like I'll have room for that.

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 9:06pm
	Is there an opening in the bottom of the transmission housing to allow access to the flex plate mounting fasteners? I'm assuming you would drill and tap 12 .375" X 16tpi threaded holes into the center plate that is affixed to the flywheel at a diameter matching the flex plate mounting bolt circle. This of course for the flex plate to affix to. However, with a bowl type flywheel on the engine, how will you get to the fasteners as I'm thinking they will be inside the bowl area of the flywheel unless the transmission has an access through the bottom of the torque converter housing?
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Aug 2023 at 9:53pm
	The flex plate has threaded tabs on the rear, bolts come from the engine side through the flywheel, on the 11000 there was a 1" pipe plug that allowed access, I shouldn't have much problem locating a spot if I can't work through the starter hole.

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 6:59am
	I couldn't see any captive nuts or weld tabs on the flex plate from the parts manual I have so assumed they were just holes. The captive fasteners will ease the task nicely. Though I've not done this in the past you could bore a hole and assuming you have an aluminum, or cast iron flywheel housing on the Detroit engine, you could silver solder a rigid electrical conduit connector into a hole you bored through the flywheel housing such as this: https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/conduit-conduit-fittings-raceways/conduit-fittings-supports/sigma-proconnex-trade-rigid-threaded-coupling/02-55082/p-1444430903587-c-9538.htm and then close the hole with a pipe plug. No dirt entry this way. Of course a plastic, or rubber plug would work also rather than just leaving an open hole.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 8:42am
	I'll probably bore a hole in the bell housing if I cannot access it through the starter hole. Then either go with a 2 bolt flange or pipe thread depending. It does need to be sealed because it's a wet bell housing.

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 10:42am
	I didn't see a scavenge, or venturi pump in the manual so assumed a dry housing. I don't remember Detroit sealing up the mounting fasteners, a gasket on the rear of the block, or machining for a lip seal for wet usage so something else to consider. Do you have the guide studs to align the flywheel housing to the crankshaft centerline? That has to be pretty close to keep seals doing their job.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 11:36am
	Yes, I actually had to change the rear housing with another I had around to go from SAE 1 that was currently on the engine to SAE 2. I believe I have enough room in the housing to install a pair of seals one forward one back if necessary. Also I'll probably end up sealing all the mating flanges with 515 Loctite.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 2:32pm
	The only other thing I can think of that would make this easier is if I could come up with an SAE 2 flywheel for the Detroit that would be a minimum of 2.5 inches thick from where it meets the crank flange to the clutch face, that would eliminate having to install the floating center disc to obtain proper dimensions.The ones I have are 2 inches at best.

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2023 at 2:36pm
	I looked and don't have anything for the inline 71 series engine any longer. A couple in the V-71 series however. I don't know if they are interchangeable or not as never tried. I don't remember anything being that thick in the crank flange to surface myself.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.

Blazefork Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Bronze Level Joined: 08 Aug 2023 Location: Kansas Points: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote Blazefork Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 4:54pm
	I was able to find a Detroit flywheel with adequate meat on it off of a 2 71 that ran an irrigation pump, should be ready to stab the engine in by the end of the week. Thanks again for your help!

Codger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1785	Post Options Post Reply Quote Codger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 5:39pm
	Thanks for the update and hope it goes smooth for you.
	A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.