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7020 PS with Cummins 5.9 transplant |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 7:57pm |
Been using the tractor to haul loads of corn 4 miles and it runs really well. Wanted to verify the high idle, as the AC tach ain't in synch now with the Cummins serpentine belt pulley. Also wanted to verify the actual PTO HP. Well, I had the high idle set just fine (by ear) to the A-C chassis at 2550 RPM right on the button. I pulled it down to 2300 RPM, which is 1020 on the PTO and had 134 to 136 HP, which suited me just fine. I then pulled it down to 900 PTO RPM, which is 2030 on the engine. Holy crap Batman the needle on the dyno just kept coming on around !! In the end, I calculated 195 to 198 PTO HP lugged down to 2030 engine speed. We needed to get back to shelling corn, so back to work it went. I'm a little concerned if I turn out the fuel screw (Bosch VE pump) to cut down on this tremendous slow speed power, I won't then still have 135 ish HP at normal rated speed. Kind of a nice problem to have, I guess. Have to wait for a rainy day to retest it when I have more time. B-5.9 turbo without an intercooler of any kind. Was supposed to be rated at 180 flywheel HP (as per the chassis tag info), but there's no tag on the engine to verify anything. I had to remove the original pump cover with the no boost/no smoke device on it (it was cracked internally and leaked fuel) to one without the smoke control and I just moved the fuel screw from one to the other, not changing where it was set.
Edited by DrAllis - 21 Oct 2022 at 7:58pm |
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AC7060IL ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 19 Aug 2012 Location: central IL Points: 3509 |
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Congratulations DrAllis. Excellent! Can’t wait to see some photos later. Try to get an exhaust Gas Temp gauge installled just before turbo so you can keep an eye on it when it loads up & looses a few rpms.
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AC7060IL ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 19 Aug 2012 Location: central IL Points: 3509 |
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If its of any interest, here's a copy of my 89' cummins 5.9L ve pump 180 hp engine ID tag. This engine is awaiting similar fate as yours. Hoping for an AC 80xx tractor donor for it. |
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captaindana ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Fort Plain, NY Points: 2546 |
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WOW what a beast you’ve created again in your lab Doc!!!
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Blue Skies and Tail Winds
Dana |
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dp7000 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Sep 2021 Location: Winchester Kent Points: 141 |
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I want one.
Please keep us updated. Thanks Doc. |
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5087 |
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The VE pump and 5.9L combination do make for a tremendous torque rise. I'd leave it alone, you got it set just right lol! In no field conditions would it ever pull down below rated rpm. The only time it's in this situation is accelerating to hi idle from an idle or lower speed. Spools the charger much quicker, and it probably smokes very little, and bet no smoke while putting out the 136hp @ 2300.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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exSW ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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Very interested.as said before have all the ingredients here to do the same. How are you doing the A/C?
Edited by exSW - 22 Oct 2022 at 8:28am |
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Learning AC...slowly
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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The 7020 already had a Sanden compressor on it from a previous repair many years ago. My brother found a ready made bracket for 5.9 Cummins/Sanden and we didn't even have to change a hose.
Edited by DrAllis - 23 Oct 2022 at 7:58am |
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 5044 |
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The 5.9 with the VE pump that has all the screws turn to the max, in my 1650 won't ever smoke until it just about dies. I'm guessing by the wheel speed, tire size and weight class it's in the 200 HP range.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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Even with ours pulled down to that 2030 RPM figure, there wasn't any smoke at all. Kind of impressive how they manage to split the atom inside the combustion chamber.
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Kenny L. ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NEIOWA Points: 1347 |
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Dr I went over and look at the girl a couple of week ago when I was down at David's place I like how well in fit in the 7020 it look like it come from the factory with it in there I told Dan I need to get you to do that to my 8030, you done a great job as usually |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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My brother did a good share of this project, so it wasn't all mine. When we finally figured out which flywheel to use, things fell into place pretty quickly. Still some small details to do before spring, with the largest being moving the fan shroud rearward about 3 inches. No problem in the Fall, but Spring temps will demand a better shroud location than we have now.
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8689 |
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Have any pictures
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34278 |
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Cummins in the PS 7020 must be like a dream to run. Thought the old inline pumps on the Cummins were more reliable than the VE pumps but I know very little about those pumps. Don't want an engine that requires wiring in computers to run them... Just bought a Perkins to do a transplant into the other 'green' tractor, an 1855 Oliver that had dropped a sleeve several years ago. So will have to get information on how to do that swap.
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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exSW ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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What tools/machines does the machine shop have to have to mill the adapter plate?
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Learning AC...slowly
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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When this project all started, I had visions of making the back plate adapter myself. My plan was to take the original 7020/301 back plate and sandwich another 301 (combine or tractor) back plate between the 7020 plate (which fit the bell housing) and the 5.9 Cummins engine block. Each A-C plate was 1/2" thick. To join the two 301 plates together was pretty easy. I just used the rear crankshaft seal as a pilot. I pressed it halfway into each plates seal hole and squared the rotation up so they were in perfect synch to each other. At that point, I drilled four randomly placed 1/4" holes thru both plates with each hole then getting tapped to 1/4" NC threads. These would be my alignment dowels for the A-C plates. The fully threaded 1/4" bolts could be installed from either side depending on where I wanted the hex head to be at the time. The eventual plan was to tack weld the plates together, but not until all the machine work was completed. Lots of measurements of the A-C 301 flywheel position were taken beforehand and this 1 inch thick two piece adapter plate seemed to be getting me within about 1/4" inch of where the original was. While bolted together, both plates were then bored larger thru the rear seal holes to make them large enough to pilot over the Cummins rear seal retainer/holder. We had a Dodge truck aluminum flywheel housing for a stick transmission. It was used as a jig to start the machine work. The A-C plates were placed over the Dodge plate and mounting holes to the 5.9 Cummins block were drilled. Also, the Cummins alignment dowel tube holes were machined at the same time. We now had holes with alignment holes to bolt up the A-C plates to the Cummins......except for one more hurdle. The 5.9 rear crankshaft seal retainer/holder protrudes from the rear face of the block. The rear lip of the engine's oil pan is part of this too. I now had to carve out the front A-C plate to go around all of this. The rear A-C plate also had to have some opening up done because of this too. I was trying to make it possible to access those four rear oil pan bolts when the engine was in chassis, just in case. Anyway, we were now at the point of an adapter plate that fit the Cummins block and would connect to the tractors bellhousing. Next step was to source a flywheel that would accept the larger design A-C torque limiter (7045 & up -8030 & up) getting me close to the correct depth. The boring/location of the STARTER was yet to be done, but you can't do that until you settle in on what flywheel you're going to use !! I spent a lot of time over a month trying to find a flywheel Dodge related (I had two Dodge starters) that would work. First hurdle was there are 151 tooth flywheels and 157 tooth flywheels. I finally figured out the ring gear tooth pitch was the same between them, but of course the starter hole was closer or farther from the center of the crankshaft. I had a dimension on the aluminum Dodge 151 tooth bellhousing to work with and I found (on the "net") a location dimension for the 157 tooth starter. But, the flywheel still alluded me. An affordable one at least. In the end, our time clock was running out as Fall was approaching. My brother purchased a "kit" from a guy in Indiana or Ohio that included a machined 1" thick adapter plate (well, two 1/2" plates together is pretty much the same thing) and a used flywheel from an 8.3 Cummins engine out of a Case-IH Magnum tractor !!! Who knew an 8.3 and 5.9 Cummins flywheel would interchange ?? Well, I sure didn't !! Anyway, we then were able to use a starter from a 426 A-C because that matched up to the 8.3 ring gear. He doesn't use a torque limiter, but a spring loaded damper bolted to the flywheel, similar to what's on many Gleaner combines. The biggest "flaw" in his kit is the fact that if you ever need to remove the oil pan, the engine has to come out and remove the flywheel and adapter plate to get at those four rear pan bolts. So once bolted up to the bellhousing and frame rails and front support in place I welded/fabbed up some front engine mounts and everything fell into place after that. As most every project like this goes along, the costs $$$$$$ are ALWAYS more than predicted. This kit was a couple grand, but moved the finish line up to where it's now being used for Fall work. EDIT: A somewhat modern mill with dial indicator was used for the rear seal hole boring, drilling and location of plate to block mounting holes and the alignment dowels. I did everything else myself with die grinder and thin cutting disc.
Edited by DrAllis - 28 Oct 2022 at 7:55am |
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8565 |
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Yep! If ya knew everything about everything these projects would go easier (like the flywheel thing). It's the "spice of life" that keeps things interesting and projects like this add to the fun. Thanks for the report.
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IBWD MIke ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 4032 |
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If I ever do one of these type of conversions I'm going to get hold of Ed Lehman. Believe he's in Pennsylvania. He has 'kits' for Red tractors and I believe others. Of course, having the 5.9 would be a huge first step! Slowly starting to work on the new shop where this could happen.
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exSW ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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Thank you! The flywheel,ring gear,starter info is GOLD. I've inherited engine swaps where that is where they stopped because they were stymied.
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Learning AC...slowly
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AC7060IL ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 19 Aug 2012 Location: central IL Points: 3509 |
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DrAllis, thanks for sharing about the rear adapter plate/flywheels, starters, etc.. Since you were able to finally install the AC 426 starter onto the 8.3’s flywheel ring gear, did the adapter plate allow the starter to be mounted on the tractors/driver’s left side away from the exhaust manifold heat?
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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No. The Cummins 5.9 engine has the starter on the right (exhaust) side. There is a fuel transfer pump on the left side that blocks a starter. The tractor bell housing will accept either side, yes.
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 5044 |
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I've know for quite awhile that the rear plate and flywheel from a 5.9 & 8.3 interchange.
When I did a 5.9 swap into an Oliver I got the mounts from Mailbach tractor in Creston OH. Their laser cut steel block plate is cut out like an inverted V to clear the Cummins oil pan. The Cummins/Oliver swap will use an adapter to a standard Oliver flywheel so everything from the block plate back is standard Oliver parts. Their conversion uses an off the shelf Nippondenso starter for a Ford, mounted into the bellhousing on the left as the original. Yes is blocks the mechanical primary pump and it's simple enough to just use an electric primary pump. The one thing missing that I'd wished that had been done was, put a hole on the right side of the engine to use the stock Cummins barring tool to turn the engine over. Awhile after doing my swap I was at Leamans in Pa. and found that they are EXTREAMLY proud of their conversion pieces. I guess the Red guys have plenty of cash burning holes in their pockets, much like those that wear Green underwear. I do have to say that their machine work on their aluminum adapter plates was very nice. I think they have started making AC adapter plates now, I'm sure that they are pricey. Every thing that Leamans was doing at the time used their own specially machined flywheels.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3861 |
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did you make a template to sell ? or future use
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21700 |
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No. It was to be a "one of". Now that I know what flywheel and starter to use, it would take very little to finish my adapter plate. Locate the starter hole, bore it and tack weld the two plates together and paint.
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34278 |
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Paul, were these the mounts you used, or something similar? ![]() ![]() |
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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PaulB ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 5044 |
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Jerry: The pieces on the right and the bottom picture show the front mounts I used. The rear mount was a full plate to bolt to the rear of the Cummins block (it would fit either a 5.9 or 8.3) and the standard 1755 bellhousing.
I wall be doing some engine upgrades this winter and will get some more detailed pictures of the individual parts. As I built a puller only tractor, I didn't use either of the HyDra powers, just a solid shaft from the clutch to the transmission connector. It has the same dimensions as a HyDra power, so one would bolt right in if I wanted. As for a clutch, it is also all stock parts except for a floater plate and stands. I used a standard 1755 pressure plate with 2 standard 1755 clutch discs, one installed each way with a relief cut out in the steel flywheel for the damping springs. The Cummins/Oliver swap is about the easiest there is because it has been done for so many years that all the snags have been ironed out.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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allischalmerguy ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Deep River, IA Points: 2893 |
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That is fantastic Dr Allis! The good Lord gave you a good mechanical mind. And hands that can make it happen. Well done!
Pastor Mike |
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It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa,
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captaindana ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Fort Plain, NY Points: 2546 |
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Dr Allis is the most amazing…..
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Blue Skies and Tail Winds
Dana |
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Boss Man ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 03 Mar 2018 Location: Greenleaf, WI Points: 617 |
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Cummins used to sell kits to put their engines in Allis, Oliver, John Deere. Only dry back is you had to buy the engine to get the kit.
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DougG ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 8305 |
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Bet that was BIG $$$$$$
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