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433I not pumping fuel

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AC7060IL View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 3:32pm
I recently acquired a 433I engine removed from a gleaner f2 - serial #33-10877 black. It's been sitting outside in its combine doghouse for a decade or so? Anyway I've hooked up a new starter, fuel tank, fuel hose, new fuel filter, battery, & 12v wire to open injection pump solenoid shut off. Solenoid makes a click sound when given voltage so I'm assuming its opening? I've installed a new ACGO fuel hand primer & it's pushing fuel. The injection pump will not prime. What can I do to get this thing to run?
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AC7060IL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 3:45pm
I would rather not give it either to get it to fire. I've got an older orange 433I that Has an operable pump, so thought of doing a swap... I removed the black engines injection pump timing window, but I can't see both timing marks?? I see the stationary mark. I've had my wife turning its flywheel with a pry bar to no avail I can't see the rotating disc timing mark. Do these marks wear off over time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 5:44pm
most likely it's all stained so you can't see the mark, and not pumping because the plungers are stuck. Most likely needs torn down and cleaned up. I do a lot of this, thanks to modern bio-diesel, and machinery sitting around. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B52FXR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 7:54pm
I have the same problem on my 653 Dozer. Rebuilt injector pump and injectors with clean fuel lines. Will start on ether and die when I don't keep spraying ether in it. Has the compression gotten so bad it won't stay running??????? I so want to hear this Dozer run on her own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete from IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 8:02pm
You probably know that you have to loosen the injector lines from the injectors and then crank it until fuel comes out then tighten them back up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B52FXR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 8:10pm
Yes Sir. I only get a little bit of squirt of fuel out of the injector lines. Do I have a small air leak somewhere. The guy I bought the dozer from said it did the same thing with him, with the old pump. I have replaced the pump and had the injectors rebuilt, but to no avail. I timed the pump at 24-26 degrees and did everything like the manual says. I have worked on everything from Briggs and Stratton to B-52 engines.........and I am at a loss. I only have 7 gallons of fuel in the tank.............I do not have gravity flow out of the fuel line, but if I pump the primer plenty of fuel comes out of the line. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Could I have blown the head in the new injector pump with it being timed 180 Degrees out? Gracious I sure hope not!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete from IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 10:26pm
I don't think you did any damage to the pump with off timing. There is not a large amount of fuel that comes out of the injectors. Are you getting a small amount of fuel out of each line? If so I would think it is a timing problem. I have heard of the harmonic balancer going bad and not showing the proper timing. You would have to take out an injector and see if TDC is actually where the timing pointer says. It is also possible that the pump is sucking air from a line leak somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 6:32am
who did the pump? or was it just another used pump? 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 8:44am
Ed, when I get the injection pumps timing marks lined up, can I just remove the pump by loosening its 3 housing bolts where it mounts to the engines front plate? Will it slide out of the front plates gear?
Yesterday, I removed the exhaust manifold & turbo assy. I had read on here sometime back about doing that so the injection pump & injector lines an be removed as one unit. Am I thinking correctly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 9:46am
yep, you slide the pump back off the shaft. It does help sometimes to pull the gear access cover off the front so you can help position things when putting back together. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 10:18am
Thanks Ed. Does your schedule allow for me to ship this pump to you for rebuild? I think I have your ship info from a previous pm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 11:14am
I am pretty busy, but I always seem to get them done lol!
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 3:49pm
Injection pump's timing view window with marks lined up

looking thru the Injection pump front plate inspection hole.  Is this correct?  With the Injection Pump's timing marks lined up, the timing punch mark is visible at this position.  Does this need to match up with the idler gear at a specific position also?

I found the crankshaft pulley timing marks and they read 15 degrees.  Book calls for 18 degrees.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 5:15pm
looks like you found the pump marks. lol! The punch mark is not as important in my opinion, since the main concern is that the crank pulley is where it needs to be, and the lines in the pump lined up. The problem can come along if the front pulley has slipped. Being it's at 15, I'd say it's ok. It is common to see them lose a couple degrees over time. That is why I like to suggest people actually timing it when re-installing a pump, instead of simply marking the housing, and putting it back exactly as it was. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 8:50pm
Thanks for the advise Ed. The pump & fuel Lines combo slid right off. The umbrella? seal made a bit of a bump on the pump, but having removed the front plate housing inspection hole I was able to hold pump gear centered & square which allowed the pump not to bind as it slid off the shaft. Takes both hands (one on pump & one on gear).

Since this engine has been non-operational for a decade or more, should I be concerned about it's injectors? The stagnant fuel that emptied from the injection pump timing window smelled like turpentine. Would that kind of fuel clog injectors?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B52FXR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 9:51pm
update on my AC653 Dozer.............She is running!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to remove a screw from the side of my injector pump to relieve an airlock. Pumped her up with the primer with the lines loosened up. Turned her over and she fired up and smokes like a freight train. I was so happy to see it breath life. Got to get tranny fluid to see if she will move tomorrow. Left pedal is stuck up the right pedal goes to the floor. One step at a time. I hope she moves and stops without alot of problems other than waking up from a long hibernation. Thanks to all who have helped me with her. Dave and Central Fuel Injection Is Esterville, and Ivan at Sumpter for the Troubleshooting procedures. Thanks a milliion to everyone of you folks!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 6:36am
Originally posted by AC7060IL AC7060IL wrote:

Thanks for the advise Ed. The pump & fuel Lines combo slid right off. The umbrella? seal made a bit of a bump on the pump, but having removed the front plate housing inspection hole I was able to hold pump gear centered & square which allowed the pump not to bind as it slid off the shaft. Takes both hands (one on pump & one on gear).

Since this engine has been non-operational for a decade or more, should I be concerned about it's injectors? The stagnant fuel that emptied from the injection pump timing window smelled like turpentine. Would that kind of fuel clog injectors?


Very much so about the injectors. The same fuel that is gummed up in the pump also has the moving parts of the injector gummed up. Doing only a pump repair in this instance, could cause the pump to seize. The pump will now be pumping fuel, but with the injectors all stuck closed, the fuel has now where to go, putting extra stress on the pump, and possibly seizing it up. Normally the injectors can be torn down and cleaned and re-assembled and adjusted, but I've seen several instances where the nozzles were just too pitted to save.
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 6:45am
Ed, I've never pulled injectors before. Could you please give me the procedure for removing these injectors? Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 6:53am
well, the lines are already off. Take the return line off the sides of the injectors. Take the 2 bolts out of each injector hold down. Now, they are sometimes rusted in there. If they don't come out by pulling by hand, stop and drain coolant. Then fab up a slide hammer to screw on the inlet, it's 9/16 -18 (fine thread) and pull them out with some force. Reason for draining coolant, is if you get forceful and a copper tube comes out with the injector, it won't fill the cylinder. Soak a good penetrating oil around them as well. Make note of which side the return line is on, since it very much matters on the spray pattern. The straight (bosch or american bosch) injectors are hard to get a hold of. Good luck, I hope they come out easy!
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 7:53am
Here is a picture of one of the injectors on this black 433I engine 33-10877.

Sounds like I will be fabricating an injector puller.  Anyone on this site have pictures of injector pullers that you have fabricated?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2015 at 5:52am
I got #1 injector pulled.  Maybe it's condition looks typical?  I was amazed at the gunk & rust on it. Is this corrosion an indication that the sleeve may have been leaking coolant or do these just have condensation from their own heat?

Here is a picture looking down inside the injector's sleeve.  There is lots of corrosion on it.  What procedure do I use to clean this up?  Can these be pulled straight out for cleaning? Do they have any gaskets attached to them? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lynn Marshall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2015 at 6:53am
Somewhat typical. Do not disturb the copper tube or you will be pulling the cylinder head. Clean the tube with a rag and gas, brake clean, solvent, or whatever you have. Blow out the hole, and hope for the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 740Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 8:13pm
Which screw did you loosen to remove air from your pump?
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 8:39pm
Drop a short 1/4" screw into injector hole with head up. Use a 12 gauge shotgun brush to clean hole. With a screwdriver hold the screw down while blowing the crap out of hole. Use a magnet to remove screws.    MACK
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