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Henry se/k! 
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Location: Kincaid Kansas
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 Topic: 25-40 vs 30-60
Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 8:25pm |
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We have 25-40 ser no 24531. Norms books lists this to be 1930. It has engine with KERO 5 1/4 stanped on block Tractor is on full steel,has starter tank for gas,and water injector from back of block. to carb What is dif between 25- 40 AND 30 -60 ? Henry
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Dale H. ECIL
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Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 9:35pm |
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With what you describe it would be a 30-60. I have a 1935 30-60, serial # 25389. it has factory round spokes on rubber.
The difference is the KERO 5 1/4 stamped on the block plus the water injector from the block. Mine has this also.
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Allis Chalmers Museum, Paris, Il.http:// www.allischalmersmuseum.com 217-275-3428
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Rfdeere
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Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 10:01pm |
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Was the 30-60 a designated model by Allis Chalmers ? I am Looking through Norm Swinford's Allis Chalmers Farm Equipment 1914-1985 book and am not finding any mention of this model ? I have seen many people talk and mention this model but there is no mention in Norm's book ?
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Allen Dilg
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Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 11:00pm |
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Hello I have the same tractor that Dale is discribing, Just got the overhauled motor back this spring. Don't know wheather to put this tractor together, or the L 15-25 together first, great to have problems like these!!
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 2:23am |
 Henry se/k! wrote:
We have 25-40 ser no 24531. Norms books lists this to be 1930. It has engine with KERO 5 1/4 stanped on block Tractor is on full steel,has starter tank for gas,and water injector from back of block. to carb What is dif between 25- 40 AND 30 -60 ? Henry |
You have a 30-60. Mine is the same (serial number 25575) but is on factory round spokes with rubber tires. At some time in its life, the rear rims have been widened to take fatter rubber and this has made the tractor rather wide. If you look at the rear of the block, you should see a square-headed pipe plug, about 1/4" size. This is the warer feed for the carburettor - a metal pipe was fitted into the block to feed coolant into the carb to check pinging under extreme load when burning kerosene. Easier now to add about 15% high octane gas to your kero fuel instead of using water. Only a small number of 30-60 tractors were made - about 50 I heard!
Tricky Dickie
Edited by Tricky Dickie - 12 Sep 2011 at 2:24am
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David Maddux
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 5:30am |
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I will have to look at mine this morning. I have the same thing as described with the exception of the 5 1/4 kero stamp. It has the water line out the back running to the carb. and has the 5 1/4 pistons. Although that could have come as an overhaul some time in it's life. I will have to check the stamping this morning, I have talked to Henry about this, but can't remember what is stamped. I remember my serial no. makes mine a 36 model. I thought the 30/60 was made after reported end of serial numbers for the 25-40? Dave.
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bill2260
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 6:06am |
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can't resist. 30.06 kicks harder. Bill
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 6:07am |
The 25-40 fitted with a "kero 5 1/4" engine is a 30-60. My understanding is that most original 30-60's were manufactured towards the end of 25-40 production during 1935 and 36, in-and-among standard 5" bore 25-40's. However, I am told that a number of 25-40's were retro-fitted with E60 kerosene power units as replacements for the original 5" bore engine, in order to provide extra grunt. These would of course be stamped
"KERO 5 1/4" and be difficult to tell from original 30-60's. Also, apparently, a number of 5" bore original engines were uprated by fitting 5 1/4" pistons/liners and these would still carry the original engine marking stamped in the usual place. The E 30-60 is a very interesting tractor which has a remarkable performance and it makes one wonder how much more successful the ill-fated Model A tractor would have been if Allis had designed it with the 5 1/4" engine mated to a stronger, purpose-built 4 speed transmission etc, rather than revert to the smaller bore in order to save money by using the U transmission. Some people have fitted the 5 1/4 engine to Model A tractors and no doubt this provides real grunt, but the transmission must be very suspect and one wonders how long it would stand up to the flood of extra torque from those 563 cubic inches!
Tricky Dickie
Edited by Tricky Dickie - 12 Sep 2011 at 6:14am
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Fred in Pa
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 6:29am |
WITH OUT THE KERO MANIFOLD AND CARB YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE 'HP' JUST BECAUSE IT SAYS 5 1/4 Kero. A TRUE 30-60 has the same starting serial as a A TRACTOR and will be a 1936.
Call me at 717-632-9022 after 8 pm eastern time some evening ( after my shop hours) and i will be more then glad to tell you a bit about the TRUE 30-60
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David Maddux
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:29am |
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I went out to the shop and checked mine. The block is stamped " K 5 1/4". Then the engine serial no. is stamped below that. Mine is a 1936 model, so what do I have?
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David Maddux
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:30am |
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I went out to the shop and checked mine. The block is stamped " K 5 1/4". Then the engine serial no. is stamped below that. Mine is a 1936 model, so what do I have?
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Fred in Pa
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:33am |
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Dave what is your E 25-40 TRACTOR Serial #
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David Maddux
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:46am |
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Fred: The tractor serial no. is 25254. The engine no. is 46279. Just for kicks I checked my engine no. on my A is 49226G and then 4 3/4. The A tractor serial no. is quite funny. In big numbers it says A26374 then in small numbers right below this it says A26574. Larry Swenson seems to think the man in the factory that was stamping numbers made a mistake, and instead of making a big deal out of it, just corrected it with a smaller set of numbers below the larger ones. Dave.
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:46am |
Fred in Pa wrote:
WITH OUT THE KERO MANIFOLD AND CARB YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE 'HP' JUST BECAUSE IT SAYS 5 1/4 Kero. A TRUE 30-60 has the same starting serial as a A TRACTOR and will be a 1936.
Call me at 717-632-9022 after 8 pm eastern time some evening ( after my shop hours) and i will be more then glad to tell you a bit about the TRUE 30-60 |
You will also have real trouble burning kero without a kero manifold! The trouble is that some American owners would often smash the hotbox off the kero manifold so that they could burn gasoline more efficiently, because gas has always been so cheap in the USA. When I bought mine (the first English owner told me that it had originally come from Nebraska) the heatbox had been broken off and all that was left was a jagged edged ridge where it had been. Fortunately, I was able to get a replacement from a contact in the UK, who has had some kero manifolds cast. As for serial numbers, mine is 25575 and my A is A25904 for comparison purposes. I'll check the engine nos of both tractors and come back with them later
Tricky Dickie
Edited by Tricky Dickie - 12 Sep 2011 at 7:50am
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David Maddux
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:52am |
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I was wrong, mine is a 1934. When I got it, it was on cutoff wheels and the dummys cut a rear set of road wheels, which is 6" wider than standard wheels. The auxillary tank was missing and the kero manifold was also missing.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 9:16am |
To answer your question there is no differance other then (arguably) when it was built. Call it what you wish there are good arguements both ways. My take on the matter is as follows. 25-40 Model Es were offered in three bore sizes and multiple fuels. The most powerfull of which were the 5 1/4" bore kerosene fuel tractors. These were called Thesherman's Specials a term that went back to 20-35s that were equipped first with special governors that allowed for variable speed governing and later increased power levels. They were not warrentied for drawbar work. The term 30-60 was not heard of until after regular production of the model E was stopped in 1935-6 and replaced by the A. A special run of tractors (not even mentioned in Swinford's book but is in Wendel's) were built after the A was in production, all were 5 1/4" kersosene burners and at least some of them bore fender decals that proudly proclaimed them as 30-60s, I have seen an original. I have personaly seen 4 25-40 tractors with serial numbers higher than the one stated in "The Books" but lower than the first "A" number. To me any 5 1/4"K tractor built before 1936 with 5 1/4" bore is a 25-40 Threshermans Special after 1936 it is a 30-60.
Edited by Butch(OH) - 12 Sep 2011 at 9:17am
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 11:01am |
That's very helpful Butch - what you are saying is that there is no difference between a 563 cubic inch kerosene-equipped Model E 25-40 from before 1936 and a Model 30-60 equipped with the same engine, but built after 1936, apart from the name used by Allis. The very few 563's that originally came over to the UK were known as Model EK's. I have only ever heard of one being imported during the years of their production - it was bought as an Allis-Chalmers Model EK, off the Allis exhibit the Royal Agricultural Show at Newcastle in 1935, by a contractor in Northumberland and used to pull a plough with six fourteen inch bottoms. It was driven by Edwin Bainbridge, who later became a very famous pioneer collector of old tractors and who died only a few years ago. I remember Edwin telling me about its thirst for fuel; 40+ gallons (UK gallons!) per day! I have checked the engine numbers on mine and also on my A. The number on the 563 E engine is: KERO 5 1/4 46927 and on the A it is: 48056, with no letter or bore size, although I know for absolute certain that it is a 5" bore engine. An interesting feature on the 563 engine is that it has a flange-mounted magneto, the same as the A. I don't know whether this is of any significance.
Tricky Dickie
Edited by Tricky Dickie - 12 Sep 2011 at 4:13pm
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 12:03pm |
I should inlcude in my ramblings that the only claim I have on "expert" is I have read with interest all the known literature on the subject and I talked with more than a few old men who were there. Also for reasons unknown to me there are, or were a bunch of the very late E tractors sold locally, I have seen 3 post 1935 30-60 Es that were sold new within 20 miles of me. That's a high percentage of the total built. Another of my referances is parts catalogs. Allis was known to put out a lot of variations that never made the sales catalogs but you can bet your eye teeth that if they built it you will find referance in the parts books. Yes there were small variances in the 5 1/4 K Model Es over the years, you mentioned one in the magnetos, but the basic tractor was unchanged. When I say the same I mean basicaly the same, sorry. The engine in my 1938 kerosene A is a from a 1935 Threshermans special tractor. I have documentation from new to when it was scrapped less the engine and it had the base mounted magneto you mentioned. Post 1936 so called 30-60 tractors had a flange mounted mag same as the As, at least the ones locally did. All have model RV4 F-M magnetos. No model As were sold here in the states with 5 1/14" bores according to the parts books but you will find old timers who swear differant. We had gasoline tractors at 4 3/4" and "low grade fuel" or distillate tractors at 5" bore. No As here were sold for pure kerosene fuel, again to my knowledge. You mentioned the air boxes and I can attest that my A will barely run on gasoline when hot. I always mix somewhere from a "dab" to 2/3 kerosene in the main tank depending on if we are parading or into serious play. I think more of the air boxes rotted off or freeze broke than were intentionaly knocked off but that is pure speculation. Before repros were available Larry Lietzow spent a LOT of time and effort to repair manifold to as new condition.
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Henry se/k!
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Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 12:06pm |
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Mine has a base mount mag. It also has ,what I beleive to be, factory line from block to carb, I also have two 5-1\4 motors for parts
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 2:01am |
Butch, It's nice to hear that you run kerosene in your A, as so many USA collectors will only use gas in tractors which were designed for kero. Here in the UK, almost no gas tractors were sold (apart from early Fergusons) and Tractor Vapourising Oil (tractor fuel) was the norm until the early-mid 1950's. The reason for this is that Gas is so highly taxed over here and also kero and tvo are much safer to store on a farm. I always maintain that a tractor designed to run on kero, if properly set up, will run far better on that fuel than it does on gasoline and will push out more horsepower too! This stands to reason, as there is more energy in tvo and kerosene than there is in gas, which needs to be able to take advantage of a higher compression ratio in order to develop the extra horse power for which it is so often credited. In the UK, we love the smell of tvo exhaust which brings back memories of childhood for some of us like few other things can.
Tricky Dickie
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 8:56am |
Tricky
Several years ago we were plowing on my farm and pulling 4-16" plows. In the middle of my farm there is a "pot hole" of what we call black gumbo and it pulls like you added a couple bottoms to the plow. Running 2/3 kerosene, 1/3 Gasoline and a splash if #2 diesel we could lug those 4-16s through the pot hole in 3rd gear. Middle of the afternoon we ran short on fuel and I added 10 gallons of gasoline to the tank and next round had to shift down to second to make it though, after three rounds of that I went to town and got 10 gallons of kerosene, topped of the fuel tank and imediately began to pull through the pot hole in 3rd gear again. I learned something that day, about too much octane for the compression ratio of the engine and how it affects lugging power.
Our low grade fuel A
Edited by Butch(OH) - 13 Sep 2011 at 9:02am
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 12:55pm |
That's absolutely right Butch, Kero for a kero engine and gas for a gas engine. Each has the compression ratio and the manifold to suit the fuel it's designed for!
That A of yours is a real beauty - Makes me wonder whether to paint mine!
Tricky Dickie
Edited by Tricky Dickie - 13 Sep 2011 at 12:55pm
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 4:20pm |
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Interesting points on the fuels. I have a very low hours '30 Case 'C' that I bought from Stan Reynolds a couple of years ago. It has the kero manifold with the heat stove and the small gasoline starting tank. I have been running it on straight gas and it always seemed to be down on power when plowing. I'm going to try it on kero and see if there is a noticeable difference.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 4:48pm |
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Phil, If your plow works the tractor hard you will notice quite a differance. Otherwise you can just enjoy the smell, LOL. If your tractor has had high compression pistons installed you will know it quick becuse of detonation knocking. Have fun!
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 3:27am |
Butch is quite right Phil - if your C is rigged for kerosene, with a low compression head/pistons, it will develop noticeably more torque when you feed it on kero (and it's torque which counts when a tractor is pulling hard!). This is due to the relative densities and energy potential of kero versus gas. Gas has got the mythical reputation of giving more power only because it has the knock resistance (due to its superior octane number) to take advantage of the efficiency conveyed by the higher compression ratios used in engines designed for gasoline, which would cause serious pre-ignition knocking if kero were to be used. However, with a pre-heated manifold and a low compression ratio, kerosene will always give better results because its density and energy potential is greater than that of gas. In such an engine, the pre-heater manifold would make each "lungful" of gasoline/air mixture less dense than ideal (the opposite of an intercooler!) and the low compression ratio would make matters worse. When kerosene is used, as intended, the pre-heating necessary for vapourisation is fine because the density of the fuel compensates and the low compression enables the kero/air mixture to burn progresively without pre-ignition, providing more torque. This is simplifying matters, but, in a nutshell, that's how it works. Remember to adjust the main jet richer when burning kerosene, to compensate for the higher viscosity of that fuel as it passes through the jet. Good luck and enjoy the extra torque and the exhaust perfume!
Tricky Dickie
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 12:25pm |
By the way Phil, don't forget to add about 15% high test gasoline to the kerosene before you use it in your tractor - just to raise the octane number enough to avoid pre-ignition when it's pulling hard!
Tricky Dickie
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Tricky Dickie
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Posted: 19 Sep 2011 at 2:21am |
I'm just back from Little Casterton Working Weekend, where I hitched the EK 30-60 to a trailed subsoiler and dropped the blade right in (2 1/2 feet!). The old girl just sat down and growled as it took up the load and then hauled that deep blade along like a good 'un! The owner of the farm site (an Allis crawler man!) was a bit concerned about the "mess" that the subsoiler was making of the ploughing site, so he suggested that I try hitching the tractor up to his set of wide, heavy Ransomes trailed disc harrows, designed to be pulled by a crawler and set at maximum pitch. I was a bit worried when I saw the size and weight of that disc set, but hitched it up and somewhat to my surprise the big Allis pulled those discs in high gear. The field was on quite a slope and it went up the grade in the same gear, although it was working about at maximum load. The farmer thought that the engine had probably been modified for tractor pulling when it was in the USA (it hasn't, so far as I can tell!) and another spectator would not believe that it was not a diesel engined, modified machine until I showed him the spark plugs and carburettor to prove that it was indeed running on kerosene (with 15% gas added to raise the octane enough to prevent pinging). I have always been a Case LA man and would have bet on my LA against any tractor, but not any more - that big Allis pulls like an elephant!
Tricky Dickie
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