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20 gpm live hydraulics

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blksmth View Drop Down
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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    Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 1:25pm
I'm looking at putting together the last pieces  in adding a crank driven 20 gpm pump to my D-19. I'm looking at keeping the reservoir size to a minimum by adding a cooler in front of the rad. I'd like to incorporate part of the loader frame as the reservoir. Is there a general rule of thumb as to how much the reservoir should hold if I return the oil through the cooler before dumping to the tank?
Also there are thermostatic bypass valves that could bypass the oil to the tank in front of the cooler, but the bypass orifice is restricted to 1"NPT which would give more back-pressure on the return. 
There is thought to only slipstreaming part of the oil flow through the cooler as well. The return oil filter could be plumbed in parallel to the cooler, and the cooler ports could be downsized from -20 orb to 12, with the filter ported 1 1/4". Of course I could run the thermal bypass valve through a smaller cooler and have the filter in parallel.
A lot of decisions will be based on the physical size the cooler can be. If I can't fit 20 X 20", it'll have to be ported smaller.
What thoughts do you guys have?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 1:39pm
I'm thinking if this is for a loader, you'll have the loader and bucket and manure spreader all banged up from too much speed.....10 GPM would be plenty in most cases.
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blksmth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blksmth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 4:24pm
No It's more for a hoe attachments and small scraper.

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M Diesel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Diesel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 6:22pm
Many systems bypass the reservoir altogether if the supply lines have any length. It serves the offset needs for the rams and that is about it. With a cooler, and only 20 GPM, no worries, especially when not driving a motor.
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 6:50pm
Reservoir volume serves more functions than just providing offset for cylinders and cooling time for flow.

Aereation occurs in the fluid as a happenenstance of many things... everything from leaks in the suction path to thermal expansion of the pump parts, valve seals, cylinder seals, etc...  and the ONLY thing that removes air bubbles from oil, is TIME.  This is the first reason why one gallon of capacity for every gallon of fluid flow is the general theme for hydraulic design.  The other things to keep in mind, are thermal expansion (you'll need room for that oil to expand), as well as keeping the reservoir clean and dry.

The latter point is something many don't understand.  Let's say you have a 20gpm system, with a 21 gallon reservoir, and 20 gallons of fluid... there's one gallon of volume available for expansion volume.  Let's say the oil's volume increases with thermal expansion to the value of about a half gallon.  A little aereation brings the level up another gallon of volume, and your reservoir is now burping fluid.

Better way, is to use a larger reservoir... not only to prevent belching oil froth out, but also so that there's a fair chunk of volume IN the tank to allow for the expansion.

Let's say you cap the reservoir tight... no breather...   when the fluid expands, you'll have positive-pressure inside the reservoir, and eventually you'll have valve and cylinder seals  leaking from the residual pressure... but you'll have a reservoir that is otherwise sealed airtight, hence not drawing in contaminants and condensation.

If you INCREASE the size of the reservoir... say... 30 gallons... the amount of pressure change inside the reservoir will be much lower, so the likelyhood of weeping leaks is much lower.  Furthermore, if the tank is equipped with a breather that will relieve at say... a 2psi differential, it'll keep a nice, clean oil, and not weep.

Another thing to keep in mind... aereation is a brick-wall for hydraulic efficiency.  When you run fluid through the pump, it pressurizes to do work.  When there's aereation... even small gas bubbles... entrained in the fluid, the pump compresses those bubbles, and per Combined Gas Law (P=V/T), the TEMPERATURE of the gaseous volume of those bubbles skyrockets.  Let's say the entrained bubbles and fluid are at 100F, and you compress them (both) to 2000psi...  the VOLUME of those bubbles will immediately compress to 1/2000th of their size, and temperature of those air-bubbles will rise by a corresponding figure.  Herr Diesel pays us a visit when this happens...  the oil will actually ignite and 'coke up'.

Most of the time, when someone asks me to troubleshoot a system plagued with high oil temperatures or apparently insufficient cooling capacity, it's usually an aeration or cavitation condition.  Cure that, and the fluid cools down immediately.

So there's never a case in fluid power design where running a small reservoir in a large system pays off.

Now, one thing that HELPS improve system performance in a small-res system, is to utilize a TALL/SKINNY reservoir, with the pickup low, the return about halfway up... that way, air bubbles will be more likely to find their way UP than down... and there's be less likelyhood that returning oil will pull entrainment from above, down to the suction point.

As far as cooling bypass, I personally wouldn't use a thermostatic bypass.  Instead, I would mount the cooler in a position where it's effect would be marginal, until such time that a cooling fan draws cooling air over the heat exchanger.

Another thing to keep in mind... at least for cold-weather installations, that getting the fluid UP TO TEMPERATURE, is every bit as important as keeping it from getting too hot.  Cold startup operations on hydraulic pumps is seemingly nothing short of traumatic.  I design my systems so that when I'm dealing with -30F, the fluid is brought to temperature quickly... at least, on the suction side of the pump, so that the pump's not thrashing away, with oil slowly 'oozing' it's way down a suction tube.  The pump is lubricated by fluid, but during that startup period, the tolerances in the pump are all out-of-whack (thermal expansion works both ways), and the oil's not there to do the lubrication job.

So if you're planning on a system that'll be experiencing high duty cycle and high power levels, I'd recommend doing absolutely everything you can, to assure ample volume not only for your 20-gallons of fluid, but also for expansion volume AND a path that tends to trap bubbles so they don't get sucked back through the pump.

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blksmth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blksmth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 7:19pm
I'm thinking for the reservoir having 2 8X8" x 4' long 1/4" wall structural steel, running parallel to the engine, bolted to the engine frame, with the uprights that the loader arms pin to welded together, holding over 20 gals of oil. The return can go into an upright, for disengaging air and a crossover piped under the tractor. The fill and a vent can go in the uprights,and the uprights will ensure a good suction head for the pump. A nice temp indicating level glass will show the level in the upright.
I thought the idea for the thermal bypass was to allow the oil to warm up before circulating it through the cooler.
I talked to a hydraulics salesman today and he didn't seem concerned with anything other than a filter in series with the cooler, in fact he wasn't even too concerned about the backpressure created by a cooler with restricted fittings. Personally at 20 gpm I'd rather have the return system piped all 1 1/4". Grainger's got a good cooler with 20 orb inlet and outlet for $420, with a 1 1/4" filter in front of it, perhaps that's all I'd need. 
It'll be a fair weather open station tractor, I've got a skid steer with a heated cab for winter work.
Chris
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Stan R View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stan R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 7:40pm
PV=T not P=V/T
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blksmth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blksmth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 7:49pm
PV=mRT :) , thanks I got the point.

This is a great project, so much to learn. I only wish things were more accessible across the Can/ US border, we tend to get gouged a lot by our distributors in the North.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe(TX) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 9:06pm
First of all, You NEVER want a sealed reservouir, it has to have a vent, and it should be filtered. I you seal it, all your seals will fail.
The return oil needs to enter the reservoir bellow the oil leval. This reduces areation.
Do not put the filter and the cooler in parallel. One of them will be of no use if you do. Path of least resistance?
What are you using for air flow over the cooler?
The back pressure of the return is subtracted from the pump output pressure to give you the operating pressure available.
1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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blksmth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blksmth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 2:28pm
The cooler can fit right in front of the rad. There's room up there for a 20x20 oil cooler.
Both sides of the reservoir will be vented. Most of the problem I'm having right now is securing a cooler that someone will ship to Canada. Grainger has a good one that will fit within the front grill, but some of the others available have very poor heat rejection. I'm not convinsed all equipment manufacturers put the whole return circuit through a cooler. Some must bypass some of the oil because the inlet and outlet fittings on most coolers are too small for even 20gpm without increasing backpressure substantially. A filter does creat some backpressure, whick only has to be enough to force part of the oil through the cooler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D-17_Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 8:35pm
Keeping mind that the oil is simply flowing from the pump back to the reservior until it's asked to do some kind of work. If you wish to split the flow into seperate valves and they stay split until they reach the reservior then pick which circut will do the most work and route the cooler loop through this side. The oil is placed under pressure when it's asked to perform the work against what ever the applied resistance is. Since it takes lots more HP to work the oil against the resistance you put more HP into the oil. The more HP you put into the oil the more that must be removed. The in-effeciancies of hydraulics are that you can never remove the same amount of HP that was put into it so the un-used HP converts to heat. So, if I explained it so you all could follow me, the more work a circut performs the more heat is created, put that circut through the cooler.
Another thought is to plumb the lines with smooth turns and route all the flow through the cooler. test the flow with the cooler in line from the valve and without the cooler. Just because there is a smaller connection and it will create some restriction doesn't mean it will cause too much. I'd say if the cooler doesn't add more then 200PSI to the return line you would be OK to route all the flow through it.
Yea, I can fix that.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blksmth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 7:42am
I did order the cooler with 1 1/2" in/out fittings, so it can take the whole flow with theoretically less than 5 psi pressure drop. There will be some heat generated through the triple valve as it will be a bit of restriction, every bit will be cumulative. I'll situate the level/ temp indicator where I can watch it from the seat. If there's too much cooling when when the tractor's just putting around I could plumb in a cooler bypass valve to be used for low load/ warmup conditions. I'll take pictures and post as the project unfolds later in the spring towards mid May. Untill then I'll just be acquiring the pieces and getting my H3 back together and out of my shop to make room.
I'm going with the previous D17 live hydraulic thread conversion of the cessna 2.61 cu in pump with the 7/8 13 splined drive shaft. For the crank pulley I bought a flange with the female spline and rubber grommets for the bolt pattern. The steering housing is already drilled and tapped so I'll wittle up a short pump mounting plate for 2 bolt pattern and keep it simple. There'l be enough fabrication without making every part from scratch or it'll take too long to use it this summer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 8:43pm
Thanks for correcting the formula, Stan-  I shouldn't type while eating dinner... ketchup on the keys...
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