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190xt Frost Plug Heater Leaking

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calico190xt68 View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Location: Frankton, IN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 190xt Frost Plug Heater Leaking
    Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 2:54pm
I removed the frost plug this morning and have installed the Katz engine block heater, but I can't seem to get a good seal and it continues to leak.  I have torqued it about as much as I can according to the instructions so I don't want to overtighten and break the wing nut.  The O-ring doesn't really fit tight in the hole before I tighten it, so it doesn't surprise me it leaks.  I would think it would need to offer some resistance when I push it on to be a better seal.  Someone recommended using permetex aviation sealant #3 around it, since it doesn't dry hard and it would seal it.  Anyone else run into this problem?  Any recommended sealant or do I buy a larger O-ring?  
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 3:08pm
It will eventually seal ,, if the leak isn't bad don't worry about it,, just make sure the coolant level is always good
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calico190xt68 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 3:45pm
It is a pretty significant drip and I haven't even turned on the engine.  The other thing is the frost plug isn't seating perfectly flat.  I have scraped and got everything out of the hole so isn't crud causing it not to seal.  I would lose a lot of fluid as it is right now.
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiminnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 9:14pm
Sounds like the wrong heater, should fit tighter.
1945 C, 1949 WF and WD, 1981 185, 1982 8030, unknown D14(nonrunner)
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calico190xt68 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 10:01pm
I bought a kats 600 watt 1 1/4 heater from allstates ag. While it doesn't fit perfect, anything smaller or larger would be hard to imagine fitting at all. The o-ring seems to be small. I get a constant drip. Any better product to use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 10:05pm
You might be able to buy an o-ring assortment and put a thicker one in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 10:47pm
Plaster the sealant on it but leave the antifreeze level below the plug for a day or so. Give the sealant a little time to take a set. Filler her up and go to work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 1:05am
Was the old frost plug looking crooked before taking it out?
  There are different styles of the frost plug heaters... Is this the one?
http://www.tractorpartsasap.com/Frost-Plug-Heater-1-1-4-600-Watt-120V-p/120016.htm


Personnally, I would take a second look at why that heater isn't fitting snug in there nice and flat...
 secondly, I would measure the hole in the block and the diameter of the heater and o'ring
 third, I would check to see if the casting inside the block is interferring with the heater element...
 and if you have it in the right position... might have to turn it until the heating element is not touching the casting somewhere inside the block...
  Maybe you need to tap the heater gently to seat it in the block?

 And if I was doing this for myself, and the heater is sitting flat against the block surface and still leaking, I would take a die grinder and very carefully chamfer the exterior of the hole in the block enough to capture another 'O'ring in the grove and slip another 'O'ring on up against the base and tighten the heater down snug.
 something like this...  pic on the right...





Edited by JC(WI) - 22 Jan 2018 at 1:32am
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The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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calico190xt68 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 8:04am
Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions.  Let me address some of the statements above.  Yes, that is the model of heater that I purchased.  I am suspecting that the motor casting is possibly creating a problem.
 
1) The casting hole inner lip is actually off center and this made it difficult to insert the heater with the wing on it.  I ended up taking a drill on the high side of the lip and notching it to get the wing to slip behind the lip.  Even though this helped, there is potentially a clearance problem with heater elements.  They are very close to the edge and since the lip is oblong, it may be causing a problem.

2) The reason why I am not totally convinced the oblong lip is causing me the problem is that when I slip the heater into the hole without the wing and push it on, I still get a little "rocking" as I push on the top or the bottom.  It should lay flat no matter where I push.  This indicates to me that the outer casting is not flat or the inner lip is not flat.  I think it is the inner lip that is not flat.

3) I rotated the heater element such that it is not touching anything.  I stuck my finger in there to see what I might be hitting and I discovered that the heater needs to be oriented at a 45 degree angle pointing up and towards the front of the tractor.  This is about the only place it will work.  So, I have tried multiple positions.

4) I do think that I need a thicker O-ring.  If the o-ring was touching on all sides, the heater should stay put when I push it on.  If I let go of the heater before tightening, it droops to the bottom.  So, the O-ring does not have a good seal.  The groove in the heater for the O-ring isn't really large so I have to be careful on just how thick of an O-ring I use.  I have also thought about putting another thin O-ring right up against the flange of the heater to provide a second barrier but this may create a problem when trying to tighten.  Certainly, If I did the second o-ring, I would have to chamfer the opening as the above diagram shows.  I will also say that some of the pictures including the one above shows a thicker O-ring than what I have.  Did someone at the factory have a bad day and put the wrong O-ring on it?

5) My only concern on using a sealant is that it might be tough to remove later if I have to replace the heater.  Using a softer sealant should make it work.  I assume the permetex can handle the high heat generated.

My current plan of attack is to do the following:

A)  I am going to try and take some more of the high side of the oblong inner lip off with my drill.  This might make it seat better.
B) Get a thinker O-ring and see if that stops it from leaking
C)  Use thicker O-ring and some sealant and let is set for a day as suggested above.
D)  If none of this works, then I will uninstall everything and put a frost plug back in.   

I believe Option C will work and provide confidence that it shouldn't leak in the long run.  This also may help resolve the inner lip not being flat as I suspect.

I can't believe how screwed up this simple task has become!  It may be due to the casting hole or it may be due to the wrong O-ring but it shouldn't be this hard.  If anyone sees a better path or something wrong with Option C, please let me know.  I probably won't get to it until next weekend.  The only thing I am not sure about is the sealant type that I should use.
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 49WF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 12:29pm
I have always had good luck with fitment of Zero start heaters.
More than I need
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 3:11pm
Yes, I did look at the zerostart version today and they might have two advantages from the pictures I saw over the kats version. Looks like the heating element is oriented in the center rather than the side, which would help me due to oblong issue of the core plug lip opening, and the screw to tighten the wings looks to be a little more stout. At this stage, what's another $40 if it works right. I am going to try the O-ring first and then decide. Thanks for the idea.
80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 8:32pm
You seem to have the same luck as I when doing simple tasks. "It shouldn't be this hard!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 8:44pm
Steve, sometimes them simple complecations come from those who sell you the "These will fit with no problem" items... or the manufactor of them didn't do their home work first.Angry
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TimNearFortWorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 9:25pm
I get a chuckle sometimes when companies online offer A-C parts that fit more models than they should, e-pay has vendors that do that also; "should work on" when they list models of tractors. Gotta do your homework . . . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calico190xt68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 9:42am
I tried to do my homework, but my early 190XT required a jump of faith.  The Katz block heater I selected isn't actually listed as working for a 190XT because they list the model  that uses the two bolts to attach it for the 190xt.  They ignored the early 190xts like mine.  Had a owned a late model 190xt, that would have been done in a matter of minutes.  The Zerostart catalog lists only the 175 as a model that it was designed for, but it should work in my case too.  I have a 1 1/4 opening and so either of these models should work, but they aren't listed as working.  My choice was to try it or use a Tank heater.

The casting process for these core holes isn't high tolerance, so it not fitting perfect isn't surprising.  The offset core hole that I encountered and had to deal with in my block may not be common either, but that core hole wasn't meant for a high tolerance part or block heater when it was designed.  My inexperience in doing this job doesn't help either.

I will conquer this one way or another, and be thankful if you have one of those bolt on models.  I have new O-rings coming and some sealant.  I will report back this weekend on my now 8 hour and counting adventure to install a block heater in my older 190xt!

I know this topic isn't very interesting because I might be the only guy in the world to have to spend an entire weekend installing a block heater.  Just in case there is another unlucky fool out there like me, I have documented the trail. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TimNearFortWorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 10:15am
Not implying you did not do your homework, just a comment on how you really have to nail it down when searching.
PM me and I can send you info/pics for the one on my 301 if you want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 10:15am
Calico, many times we (forum members) spend many hours reading and advising and some of the info is free... and you know what they say about free, it's worth what you pay for... but, often times when the people that needed help get their problem fixed, they forget to come back and tell us what the problem(s) really were and how they got it fixed.
  Whats that Red and Green line...? "Remember, we're pulling for you. We're all in this together."  mmm fox worthy? "git 'er done"
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 10:19am
Calico, when I posted the picture of my "bolt in" block heater, where I had to make that top bolt, that was on a one ninety GAS. If yours is a diesel, I don't think that you would have to make that bolt like that, but I am not sure. If that is the case, I feel bad if I scared you out of using the bolt in one. Because that bolt in one was really a pretty straight forward installation, and would even be easier if it was as simple as running in two bolts. My son's 185 diesel has a bolt in block heater also, but we bought it with the block heater already in it, but I don't think it has to have the special bolt. It should be the same as yours, I think. darrel
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