The lust for john deere??

  I want to thank you both for the good reading. You both have made good points, i will not pick sides, but  i was born and raised on AC all the way threw childhood, knew a lot about all there products and loved most. I am 62 years old now and farm 1300 acres with almost total JD equipment.  At age 20 , i went to work at local JD dealer and spent 10 yrs. there , mostly as a mechanic, and know 4020 very well.  I have 2 Jd 4020's as of today, one is a 65 (first yr.) and one is 72 (Last yr.) both is excellent condition, and just to let you know i also have my dad's  orginal WD-45 Diesel completely restored to showroom condition with the orginal purchase agreement from the dealer with the date and price  of sale.  So  i just wanted to Thank You both for the interest in the subjects and to let you know this will proably not be the last word about those 2 companys and there products.        Dave( in Mi.)

Gerald and Jack, Allis was using helical gear transmission by 1947 in the crawlers and by 1950 in the CA.

Edited by Lonn - 04 Jan 2011 at 6:36am

All those JD you mentioned KcGrain are later than the early 4020. The early 4020 like I have had a check valve AT the transmission pump and works like I described. The later tractors didn't. The check valve does fix the problem in the pre side console 4020. Like I said on my web page. The JD service bulletins I have say at least in the index that loss of hydraulics with the clutch pushed in the later tractors isn't from a bad check valve, because there isn't one but is from a high pressure leak which could be plumbing or any of the valves that have pressure on them all the time. My service bulletin collection is missing those issues that cover the later tractors. In my 4020 the remotes return TO the transmission oil filter that is at the pressure of the output of the transmission pump, not to the sump. And my loader returns there too. A single acting cylinder that has no load will only open, it won't close because it has that 250 psi or so pressure still applied. If the remote return went to the unpressureized sump that wouldn't be a bother. That way the reservoir up front only has to supply oil for single acting cylinders and the difference between the front and rear sides of any double acting cylinder so it can run a while with no transmission pump. Has to be that way because the capacity of the transmission pump is a fraction of the capacity of the front pump.

I said NOTHING about Green Magazine, the article I reference is from Two Cylinder Magazine out of Grundy Center, IA.

When checking shop manuals you have to go to the OLD 4020 manual SM-2039, not the TM for the side console tractor. The only things the hydraulics of the two share is oil, and the front pump, maybe 2250 psi closed center. Everything else, including the remotes is wildly different. The side console remote was used for decades after 1970. The shop manuals for the two vintages of 4020 are completely separate as are the parts catalogs. That's because the two tractors are too different to be covered in the same books. Some parts interchange, some don't. Some that fit don't work right.

AC didn't get to helical gears until the very last of the WD and the WD45. When shifting sliding gears, I suspect helicals shift a lot tougher than straight cut gears and cost several times as much to buy or make. Though the noise of straight cut gears didn't seem to bother Massey-Harris and their model 44 or a late Cockshutt where the whine of the gears, even unloaded is louder than the engine exhaust. The 4020 SR (and PS) don't slide gears about, the SR uses cogged clutches of which some are syncrhonized and some not and the PS uses disk clutches with hydraulics to do the shifting.

I've not memorized the PS portion of the shop manual, don't have one, don't plan on working on one. Nor do I want to work on my 4020 innards.

Gerald J.

You better check you facts a M2 competed with the 6620 combine it was a 6R machine a 7720 was an 8r machine and competed with the L2 . The facts on your side are the ones that are wrong, I sold Gleaners I know what was competing machines, I know what we sold against and I know what Allis Chlamers used as competitive models at the college of Knowledge. so now what your point???

Lonn if your expecting JD to be honest you must believe in Santa Claus  .......just kidding

Gerald J. wrote: Kc GRAIN YOU ARE WRONG. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 4020 hydraulics. I do and I know adding the check valve fixed at least 40 tractors since I found out about it. So long as the check valve doesn't leak and the hydraulic loads are properly connected to return oil to the front tank that front reservoir holds enough to allow continuous cylinder cycling, steering, and braking. The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone. Gerald J.

Kc GRAIN YOU ARE WRONG. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 4020 hydraulics. I do and I know adding the check valve fixed at least 40 tractors since I found out about it. So long as the check valve doesn't leak and the hydraulic loads are properly connected to return oil to the front tank that front reservoir holds enough to allow continuous cylinder cycling, steering, and braking.

The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone.

Gerald J.

I'm amazed again. I'm checking out the classified and which would you rather have??? A 1979 john deere 7200 combine with 3800 hours for $15,000 or a 1979 Gleaner M2 with 2300 hours for $8,500??

The check valve fixed my 4020. I was working on a basement excavation with a loader after that. I could sink the bucket in a wall, push in the clutch, break out that loader of hard dirt and spin the steering to the opposite stop (and the wheels followed) before I shifted to reverse and backed out. I've let it set 6 months, pushed in the clutch, started it and raised the loader off the floor without letting the transmission pump or the transmission run. Then turned the front wheels 30 degrees before letting out the clutch to spin the transmission and its pump. The check valve really did fix it.

There's about 5 gallons of oil in the front reservoir/cooler and double acting cylinders return to that reservoir, not to the transmision. So it can work for a long time so long as the differential between the two sides of the cylinders being used isn't more than those 5 gallons and there's no pressure leak in any of the control valves.

Worked for me and for many others that have worked from my web page.

The production numbers I quoted came from years of counting tractors from the actual Waterloo production logs. Which are incomplete in the early years not showing which transmission was on each tractor when there was an option of PS or SR.

The parts catalog will show when the change was from oil to dry air cleaner and there was also a retro kit to convert the earlier tractors that fit inside the oil bath air cleaner. Books based on remembering are as suspect as internet posts.

Gerald J.

Gerald J. wrote: New generation JD tractors use two hydraulic pumps, one low pressure one in the transmission oils the transmission and keeps the oil reservoir/cooler up front filled. In the pre side console tractor there is a check valve that wears out and when then clutch is pushed in on the SR that pump starts and the oil leaks out of the front reservoir and you loose everything hydraulic. I found a Service Information on that adding a new check valve in an elbow outside the transmission. I have a web page about it at http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/4020si.htm I made that fix for my gas '68 4020 and I can let it set for months, push in the clutch, start it and holding the clutch in yet, lift the loader so the check valve really works. Many have been fixed based on my web page. Loss of steering hydraulics in later models (and the side console 4020) is not blamed on that check valve, apparently there isn't one but the index to service bulletins that I have blames it on hydraulic system leaks from the pressure circuit which might be any one of the valves, from steering to three point to brakes to remote to differential lock. The steering wheel shake is to drop the stored hydraulic pressure so the front hydraulic pump turns easier and a not overly powered starter has a better chance of starting the engine. There are those (discussion today on New AG Talk Machinery) who advocate a larger starter for both gas and diesel 4020. The production numbers I posted came from the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of the Two Cylinder Magazine and they based them on a count of the actual production logs from JDs Waterloo plant. The case for the dry air cleaner and the wet are very similar. Not at all obviously different unless you drop the pan and check for oil at the bottom. The bottom looks the same from the outside and its mounted the same way. The Deere PS transmission was NOT designed by Ford. It was designed by Ford's engineer then employed by Deere, no longer by Ford. He knew what was wrong with the SOS and compensated. I'll check my parts book someday on the oil vs dry air cleaner, but I remember the break at 91,000 which began the 1965 model year. Gerald J.

The 1010 and 2010 came from the Dubuque works and were not Deere's best ideas. They are a world apart from good tractors and were hard to fix when new, harder now according to most that have had contact with them. The 1020 and 2020 are totally new designs again and good tractors though most outrageously priced when found used these days.

Gerald J.

BStone wrote: Fair enough Eldon.I'll take your word.And yes Beeman your right.I had a 300B loader and now the 2640 and 2630 all you have to jerk and twist the steering wheel to get them started.BStone

Bstone, the JDLP really doesn't compare to the XT diesel....and I think the XT is putting out about 40 more ponies....I've never put fuel in the JD in 3 years...not that is that fuel efficient LMAO! It does have good brakes, tho! It does take a good pull from an Orange tractor to get her fired up....

To be truthful JD got to where it is by a very well managed company selling a mediocre product with a financing plan that could make just about anybody credit worthy. It really has nothing to do with the actual product.John Deere was very smart by keeping dealers they could control, and forse to to market they way the company wanted.By convincing the people that John Deere was a status symbol rather than apiece of machinery to make you money by the work it performed, not by the so called resale value, or status of owning. The actual truth and the myth of JD equipment is miles apart and I speak from expierence in owning and operating both JD and AC. JD is a big marketer not manufacturer or equipment. many of JD equipment in ag and construction is made by other companies and JD badged, the public buys this BS thinking they bought some piece blessed by the JD gods.I always love the argument that JD has to be best because they are the biggest or because they are still in business. Well the fact of the matter is New Holland is the worlds largest manufactur of tractors and combines in the world and have been for years, so if thats the thinking than they must be the best. Not to keep beating a dead horse here on John Deere, you like what you like your convinced they are what they are for what ever reason, but in the grand scheme of things had there never been a John Deere what difference would it really make in the world? None they introduced or perfected nothing no one else had not already done including the JD legend of the polished plow, actualy Oliver was first. Now for the sake of argument where would the world be had there not been an Allis Chlamers. Allis Chlamers broke more records in manufacturing in design and engineering than any company ever according to the ASE to date. Not one mention of any earth shattering record or design from JD NONE. Anyone living on the west coast should wake up every morning and thank GOD that Allis Chalmers had been around . The majority of your electricity is produced on AC  equipment that has been in service for years with no down time. The worlds largest and most poweful generators are at Grand Collie that no one can beat, even China who built a larger damm that produces more power couldnt match the capacity of the AC at grand Collie. They will in all actuality go down as the largest most powerful turbines ever made, designed and manufactured by Allis Chlamers, John Deere couldnt even fathom such a task.

No I maid a mistake when I was talking about when JD got competitive in the market.The 10 series....3010...4010...etc were the beginning of there start.BStone