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Trawler II 
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 Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 6:10pm |
 PaulB wrote:
The main reason for all the technology in new cars (aside from emptying you pockets to own one) is so the nut behind the wheel doesn't really need to know what he's doing. Did anyone see the Tesla that struck two State Police Officers in North Carolina, while the Dr. was in the back seat watching a movie? I'll keep my pre computer vehicles , thank you. |
Your opinion, plenty of crashes involving people stopped on the side of the road by distracted drivers, vast majority weren't Teslas. I don't agree with handsfree or auto drive function, this is driving, not boating or flying. Highways, roads and streets are too crowded with pedestrians and vehicles for it to be safe. The logarithm cannot account for all the variables.
I will take some of the features that modern vehicles have, to each his own.
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"Most people find it easier to believe a simple lie, than the complex truth"
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 6:21pm |
Trawler II wrote:
PaulB wrote:
The main reason for all the technology in new cars (aside from emptying you pockets to own one) is so the nut behind the wheel doesn't really need to know what he's doing. Did anyone see the Tesla that struck two State Police Officers in North Carolina, while the Dr. was in the back seat watching a movie? I'll keep my pre computer vehicles , thank you. |
Your opinion, plenty of crashes involving people stopped on the side of the road by distracted drivers, vast majority weren't Teslas. I don't agree with handsfree or auto drive function, this is driving, not boating or flying. Highways, roads and streets are too crowded with pedestrians and vehicles for it to be safe. The logarithm cannot account for all the variables.
I will take some of the features that modern vehicles have, to each his own. |
Awesome reply Trawler !! Just this past week I saw a school bus stopped at a RR crossing but the driver (of the bus) was directing traffic around her bus  ? After getting around the bus, it was stopped due to a rearly-mid '2000 series RAV4 with the hood/engine doghouse up into the windshield  . This happened in Indiana, but the offender had Ohio plates
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 12 Feb 2022 at 8:38pm |
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The smart people in charge of highway safety think it's safer for busses and hazmat trucks to stop at RR crossings....then they get smashed in the a$$ by the driving public.
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PaulB
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 6:38am |
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Nuts behind the wheel on their cell phones.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 8:40am |
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Always maintained all cars should have local jammers installed in them. NO access unless stopped and in park. Simple to do.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 5:01pm |
jaybmiller wrote:
Always maintained all cars should have local jammers installed in them. NO access unless stopped and in park. Simple to do.
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WTH are you jabbering about ??
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 5:03pm |
You guys "UP NORTH" apparently speak/infer a different dialog, You might as well speak the language "south" of the US border 
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 7:44pm |
Jay is referring to devices which jam cell communications.
While it SEEMS 'simple to do', Unfortunately, RF 'jamming' of cell signals isn't that simple. One cannot make the 'jamming' remain just inside the boundaries of a car, it would not only escape the vehicle and jam the area around, it would cause the cell system (both the tower, and every user) to increase transmit power in order to maintain their programmed signal-to-noise ratio target. Furthermore, it would prevent others in the car (the non-driver) from having cell access. It would also prevent the VEHICLE from being able to communicate with the manufacturer (you may not realize that your car is now connected, via it's own cell/sat system, to the manufacturer).
The one way you COULD do it, is just shut off the cell system in any place where there's motor vehicles... that IS simple to do... 
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 8:12pm |
Tbone95 wrote:
One thing I’d be worried about, and I think you’d be too given where you live, is all that electric stuff going to each wheel including the motors operating reliably in the conditions they must operate and survive in long term.
The way they’re currently leaning it seems is a two speed tranny and planetary in the wheels. Who knows if that’ll actually be what’s dominant or not.
Just give me a gas ICE and a good gear tranny and I’ll be the happiest. |
So, having been deeply involved in the ACELA HST (which is basically a blood-brother of the TGV), and teaching the propulsion systems of those, and plenty of fossil-fueled variants, I can say with great certainty that WEIGHT is one of the reasons why an electric transmission system is NOT used in road-going motor vehicles. One could make an engine MUCH lighter than the 2400hp GM V16 diesel, but the generator it drives, is HEAVY... that generator's output goes to a pair of 3-phase inverter drives that, while not comparatively heavy in pounds, they're rather heavy in DOLLARS. After that, you get a PWM-synthesized 3 phase variable-frequency/variable voltage high-current output that goes to a pair of VERY HEAVY 3-phase traction motors in each end, that have very heavy gearboxes.
Weight in a locomotive is, in an overall sense, a generally GOOD thing... as, like in agricultural traction, weight on driven axles is key to providing tractive effort. Steel wheels and steel rails are not without their limitations, but when your limitation is about 225,000lbs, a dozen tons here and there are usually not a noticable change.
Doing the same in a car, is NOT practical. A WEAK car engine, let's say Tbone's Nissan, is mebbie 175hp... that's about 130kw. To make 130kw of electricity, you're gonna need a generator frame, windings, and rotor that will weigh about two tons. If you wanna put that electricity to work, you could do it with one 30hp electric motor in each WHEEL, which will weigh about 250lbs, and it'll need about a 6:1 reduction for each, that will weigh at least 80lbs...
And that means your wheel assembly will be 330lbs, plus another 60lbs for tire and wheel (because sissy tires won't carry a whole lotta weight). Your unsprung weight being phenominal, it is NOT going to handle well... and it isn't going to be climbing hills very well... henceforth, this is why TRAINS are fine with it- they can't climb steep grades to start with, so weight in the loco is a benefit, not a curse.
If you're interested in the concept, take a half-hour to watch Jay's video on his 1916 Owen Magnetic:
It is, for all practical purposes, an internal-combustion engine, driving an electric reluctance transmission, as if it's a diesel-motor-generator system.
As old as it is, the concept is actually magnificent, because it has the potential to be SUBSTANTIALLY lighter than any OTHER concept we use nowdays... but really, it a reluctance coupling, driving a driveshaft, differential, etc.
If you study how the Owens reluctance drive does what it does, and then compare this to how the Hydramatic Torque Converter does what IT does, you'll see that they're DOING THE SAME THING... it's just that what the Owens does with magnetism, the HydraMatic TC does with centrifugal force and fluid dynamics. The TC just does it with substantially higher effectiveness, and substantially lower weight.
It IS a cool car, though... His Stanley and White steamers are HOT, but the Doble Steamer is the best! The Baker electric is cute. If you REALLY wanna see some cool cars, his videos do more than ANY museum visit you'll get, because you get a thorough description, pictures, explanations, and a drive video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo
The Doble E-20... an amazing piece of engineering.
Edited by DaveKamp - 13 Feb 2022 at 8:14pm
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 7:13am |
175 HP, honestly, I didn't know what it was, but that there sure didn't seem right. It's not. Try 290 HP.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 8:01am |
hmm, thanks for the 'numbers' Dave ! Guy around the corner has a Stanly Steamer, sure is interesting...
wondering how to convert rotary motion into 20-40KHz, 3 phase power, at high power levels ? I know aircraft used 400HZ,1000Hz power systems for weight reduction compared to line freq of 60Hz
Edited by jaybmiller - 14 Feb 2022 at 9:07am
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 8:21pm |
Jay your tranny price on the 350 is a little high. Those are a cheap and good tranny. Used to have them rebuilt for $300 locally if l took it in to the guy which was easy.25 years ago. Did several in the good old snowplowing days. LOL. Even in todays inflated economy they are only $1500 US dollars right from B & M. And that is performance trans. The newer GM 4L80e is a bit more expensive. That one is $3000 Can. Reman right from the general. How do I know that? Just did one last year in my 99GMC. LOL. Still plowing tho.  That GM 350 is one of the best trannys out there with a bit of work. Take off the tailstock and put on a gear vendors overdrive and you have a 6 speed! That is another $2800 but sure is a good combo.
Edited by Ed (Ont) - 14 Feb 2022 at 8:26pm
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 10:29pm |
Tbone95 wrote:
175 HP, honestly, I didn't know what it was, but that there sure didn't seem right. It's not. Try 290 HP. |
I don't doubt that. I based my math on 175hp, because that's a reasonable baseline level for a modern 4-person 4cyl passenger car. So plug 290hp into the math... 290hp is 215kw.
One will NOT find a combination prime mover/generator of 215kw, in a package light enough to use in a 2100lb car... and even if one COULD, the wheel motors suitable for 54hp each would equate to at LEAST the same, or greater weight yet. It would simply be WAY too heavy to ride on any common passenger-car tires. It would be somewhere in the range of 7,000lbs or so... BEFORE adding passengers. You're over 10k just taking the family on a picnic.
By comparison, your CVT, or a 5-speed manual, are almost insignificant weight by comparison to an electric generator/motor propulsion combination.
Drivelines are all about compromises... manual shift, automatics with torque converters, CVTs, hydrostats, and motor-generator traction all have unique characteristics where there's advantages and disadvantages. With CVTs, Hydrostats, and motor-gen traction, they have one thing in common: Constant speed engine. This seems like an end-all-problems type solution, because an internal combustion engine can be tuned to operate with maximum power at one speed, and the transmission solves the rest. The gotcha, is that maximum power occurs at the speed where cylinders fill most completely, which means it will NOT be the most 'fuel efficient' speed... and it will be a formidable 'drone' while running. To alleviate this, you'll need more than one mode of operation, and what will resuilt, is an engine with a 'powerband'. Of course, the CVT can modulate to 'pick' a spot in the powerband that provides just-enough-power for demand, while staying in a 'fuel efficient' running range... in effect, a manual, or automatic transmission does exactly that, without any fancy control wizardry.
So again, it's all about picking the aspects of compromise that mean the most to an individual's needs.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 6:53am |
DaveKamp wrote:
Tbone95 wrote:
175 HP, honestly, I didn't know what it was, but that there sure didn't seem right. It's not. Try 290 HP. |
I don't doubt that. I based my math on 175hp, because that's a reasonable baseline level for a modern 4-person 4cyl passenger car. So plug 290hp into the math... 290hp is 215kw.
One will NOT find a combination prime mover/generator of 215kw, in a package light enough to use in a 2100lb car... and even if one COULD, the wheel motors suitable for 54hp each would equate to at LEAST the same, or greater weight yet. It would simply be WAY too heavy to ride on any common passenger-car tires. It would be somewhere in the range of 7,000lbs or so... BEFORE adding passengers. You're over 10k just taking the family on a picnic.
By comparison, your CVT, or a 5-speed manual, are almost insignificant weight by comparison to an electric generator/motor propulsion combination.
Drivelines are all about compromises... manual shift, automatics with torque converters, CVTs, hydrostats, and motor-generator traction all have unique characteristics where there's advantages and disadvantages. With CVTs, Hydrostats, and motor-gen traction, they have one thing in common: Constant speed engine. This seems like an end-all-problems type solution, because an internal combustion engine can be tuned to operate with maximum power at one speed, and the transmission solves the rest. The gotcha, is that maximum power occurs at the speed where cylinders fill most completely, which means it will NOT be the most 'fuel efficient' speed... and it will be a formidable 'drone' while running. To alleviate this, you'll need more than one mode of operation, and what will resuilt, is an engine with a 'powerband'. Of course, the CVT can modulate to 'pick' a spot in the powerband that provides just-enough-power for demand, while staying in a 'fuel efficient' running range... in effect, a manual, or automatic transmission does exactly that, without any fancy control wizardry.
So again, it's all about picking the aspects of compromise that mean the most to an individual's needs.
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I can do all the same math. I was just pointing out what my car is, especially since it's such a pile of crap and can't handle any horsepower, yet it's over 100 more than your example and been trouble free. 
If you happen to have noticed, I mentioned the weight of things in my earlier reply. I didn't make paragraphs out of it, just mentioned it. Cheers.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 8:29am |
Not diesel, but there are NEW ELECTRIC pickups that have a ton of batteries that power 2-3-4 electric motors that put out 500 HP.... Batteries have to be at least as heavy as a small diesel and maybe the generator also............. things are changing !!
Ford F-150 Lightning Vs. Rivian R1T, GMC Hummer EV, Cybertruck: PerformanceSlow trucks are a thing of the past. Powered by three electric motors and relying on a 4WD system, the GMC Hummer EV generates 1,000 horsepower and 11,500 lb-ft of torque (the torque figure, of course, uses some funny math, which we explain here). According to General Motors, in Watts to Freedom (WTF) mode, the Hummer electric pickup can reach 60 mph from a standstill in a mere 3.0 seconds.
Edited by steve(ill) - 15 Feb 2022 at 8:34am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 8:48am |
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Yep Steve.....as you well know, if you want something to dump it's guts and put out big torque numbers and get something going, electric motors are hard to beat.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 8:57am |
OK, the F150 EV has an 1800# battery pack in it( the 'cheap,low range' version. It's EASY to get energy from the battery to the wheels, it's NOT easy to get energy from a prime mover(engine) to convertor(generator) THEN to the wheels. THAT's the 'cheat', toss a batterypack into a vehicle...a 'nobrainer' so to speak. Now design/build a genny that can be driven from a smallish engine and you'll have made a zillion bucks, or end up like Mr. Pogue(sp) did.
Frankly the 100s of HP, 0-60 specs don't impress me.. true offroad torque, maybe, but then WHO is going to drive an F150 lightning off road and haul out logs ? ACTUALLY USE a truck as it's supposed to ?
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PaulB
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Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 6:37pm |
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Daddy's Pretty wittle twuck (as Elmer Fudd would say). Does it come with FAKE engine noise?
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Tbone95
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Posted: 16 Feb 2022 at 6:56am |
PaulB wrote:
Daddy's Pretty wittle twuck (as Elmer Fudd would say). Does it come with FAKE engine noise? |
Got any kids on your lawn to yell at?
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VictorsiuDowd
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 8:09am |
The old diesel engines were light years ahead of the newer ones. If only they still made them like they used to! That said, it's still an interesting idea. I think the trick is finding a way to make it lighter, more efficient, and more cost-effective. You'd have to crunch the numbers to see if it's feasible for a passenger vehicle like the Nissan Silvia from https://www.jdmbuysell.com/buying-guide/nissan-silvia/. Just because something's been done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that it's the best way. It's awesome to get creative and think outside the box. Who knows, maybe your idea could be the next big thing in the auto industry.
Edited by VictorsiuDowd - 13 Feb 2023 at 8:10am
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 10:01am |
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SPAM SPAM SPAM
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DonBC
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 3:46pm |
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Another use for V-belt variable drives that doesn't seem to have been mentioned was to control the ground speed of self propelled combines when harvesting. Some used two split pulleys, the driven pulley was spring loaded and the drive pulley was manually controlled. Another method was to have fixed drive and driven pulley with a manually controlled split pulley between belted them. Relatively heavy machines that worked well with this system.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 5:45pm |
jaybmiller wrote:
6K isn't that bad( tongue in cheek).. it'll cost you 4K+ for a TH350 rebuild up here... as pointed out CVTs are great in LIGHTWEIGHT vehicles.... MTD 'Automatic' riders are one example. Sleds are the most well known uses for them though.
still like the way RR engines are made. diesel engine driving a genny to power motors on the wheels. 'Dialed' in they'd be GREAT....
happy wife didn't get trailer hitch on her Quashqui (baby rogue...)
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Jay you are off on your prices a bit. TH350 is the cheapest trans to rebuild. I used to get those done for $350 dollars. And do the re and re myself. Plowin snow. LOL. Can still get a complete one from B&M for $1500. And that is beefed up a bit. Just got a 4L80e done a couple years ago. 99 GMC plow truck. That was $3000 parts and labour. Getting lazy in my old age. Anyway to get back to topic I think one of the best transmissions made is the Chrysler 8 speed. That is a ZF trans used in millions of apps all around the world. I have one in a Chrysler 300. 250 km on it and works like brand new. I did service it at 180km which is imperative on any tranny to make it last. GM 6 speed is good too and so is the 4L80e.
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bigal121892
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 8:12pm |
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The other issue with a combustion to electric drive, is how to prevent free wheeling going down hill.
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 9:04pm |
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“..The other issue with a combustion to electric drive, is how to prevent free wheeling going down hill..”
Going downhill, electric vehicles use very effective regenerative braking and convert motion back into electricity.
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bigal121892
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Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 5:11am |
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That's on an electric vehicle, as there is some place to put the electricity back into, i.e. the battery. On a combustion-electric drive, there probably wouldn't be room for a large battery pack to do this, nor would there be space for a dynamic braking grid.
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DMiller
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Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 6:13am |
Combustion Electric do not drive off the Engine, the engine charges the battery or runs a generator to feed the electric motor(Engines are Fueled, Motors are electric), there is no direct link engine to drivetrain and the motors can be used to regenerative braking as noted.
CVT is a major headache when fail, generally NOT rebuildable and the replacement transmission ends up New or Salvage yard used. Same concerns as with CVT drives in UTVs, Combines or other mechanisms using that tech, friction wear of surfaces and eventual erosion regardless fluid lubricated or cooled or not.
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bigal121892
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Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 9:24am |
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My response was to the question, why don’t we see a diesel electric like on a locomotive? Which is a direct drive of the motors.
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