| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Thad in AR. 
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Horizontal milling machine
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 4:57am |
|
I just happen to have one.
Not what I was looking for but it happened.
I still want a vertical machine at some point.
This one is close to home and on the very cheap.
It’s a very old Brown & Sharpe
It’s been fitted with a large 120v motor.
I didn’t get much tooling with it.
One draw bar and a couple wore out cutters.
I’d like to make a short arbor for it. One that uses end mills and maybe a face cutter.
The problem I’ve discovered is that it doesn’t use a draw bar.
The spindle is just a taper fit I assume either Brown& Sharpe no. 9 or 10.
I can find collet chucks to fit the taper but is it safe with no drawbar.
With a long arbor the over arm helps hold the arbor in the taper???
Advise needed.
Also I saw pics of one just like it with a Bridgeport J head mounted on it.
That may be a future option
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
B26240
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3860
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:12am |
|
I'm no expert just a hobby machinest but I think any tappered arbor needs a draw bar to keep in the spindle. Does the over arm support have what looks like a lathe center? If so you have a really old B&S machine as in before 1800. David Richards ( old steam powered machine shop ) has one. If it has a lathe type center in the over arm support it may not need a drawbar, with out that I would think side load would loosen arbor right up.
|
|
B26240
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3860
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:14am |
|
Meant to say 1900
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:42am |
 B26240 wrote:
I'm no expert just a hobby machinest but I think any tappered arbor needs a draw bar to keep in the spindle. Does the over arm support have what looks like a lathe center? If so you have a really old B&S machine as in before 1800. David Richards ( old steam powered machine shop ) has one. If it has a lathe type center in the over arm support it may not need a drawbar, with out that I would think side load would loosen arbor right up. |
Yes it uses a lathe type center on the overarm. From the information I’m gathering it was made between 1927 and 1934. I’m not for sure on that? They also had a civil war era Lathe. It was quite a machine. Seemed to have all the bells and whistles of a WW2 era machine.
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:08am |
|
Little before my era of expertise.....So, if I'm understanding correctly, the center is helping to push the taper into the spindle taper? If so, seems like you aren't going to be able to use an endmill? Just circular cutters. Maybe I'm not thinking straight.
|
|
DMiller
Orange Level Access
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 29661
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:15am |
|
I purchased a Grizzley/ENCO Vert/Hor mill over a decade ago, it has a head on the reverse end of head stock to use a cross shaft for milling cutters. OR can use a tapered shaft Cutter or adaptor with a similar thru bolt retainer as head stock to use standard mills.
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:41am |
Tbone95 wrote:
Little before my era of expertise.....So, if I'm understanding correctly, the center is helping to push the taper into the spindle taper? If so, seems like you aren't going to be able to use an endmill? Just circular cutters. Maybe I'm not thinking straight. |
I assume the center us just used to stabilize a long arbor? Can’t say for sure? I think you may be correct. Inside the spindle a ways is a groove to slide in a wedge to remove the arbor like on a drill press.
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 8:22am |
Thad in AR. wrote:
Tbone95 wrote:
Little before my era of expertise.....So, if I'm understanding correctly, the center is helping to push the taper into the spindle taper? If so, seems like you aren't going to be able to use an endmill? Just circular cutters. Maybe I'm not thinking straight. |
I assume the center us just used to stabilize a long arbor?
Can’t say for sure?
I think you may be correct.
Inside the spindle a ways is a groove to slide in a wedge to remove the arbor like on a drill press. |
On second thought. . . A Brown and Sharpe taper is a locking taper. Hence the wedge to help knock it out. As long as you get it pressed in snug, it should hold just fine, and drive an endmill ok. The old (1940-1950) horizontal mills we used to have had a 50 Mill Taper, which does not lock. Our overarm supports were bushing style, not axial support.
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 10:32am |
 Thank you. That’s what I was hoping I have much to learn.
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 10:56am |
|
Take it slow and easy. Baby steps. You'll do fine.
|
|
BrianC
Orange Level
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Location: New York
Points: 1613
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 11:23am |
I was looking at B&S taper end mill holders, they have draw bar threads. As do morse taper end mill holders. Find out what you have, maybe look over the website vintagemachinery.org. Post a picture. I wouldn't use an end mill without a draw bar (well, a 1/4" diameter ok). The helix wants to pull out the cutter, the taper also. I have a 1912 tool catalog I remember a lot of straight flute cutters. So maybe they did try to mill with out a draw bar. No OSHA, no problem?
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 12:21pm |
|
Depends a lot on the condition of things I’d say. True a helix can cause pulling out, but that’s also somewhat load related. I think take it easy and probably be ok. But it is a valid concern.
|
|
B26240
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3860
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 4:01pm |
|
I'm with Brian C As far as I know no tapper shank will stay in with a side load
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 78009
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 4:32pm |
dumb question........ is the center shaft hollow where a draw bar could be added ?
Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Dec 2022 at 4:40pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:10pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
dumb question........ is the center shaft hollow where a draw bar could be added ?
|
Not hollow all the way. I’m thinking the same thing. There is a pulley on the back end of the spindle that runs the power feed for the Y axis. That could be incorporated in to the drawbar I suppose. I’m trying to decide weather to shoot for completely original or mod it to work somewhat like I want. I’ve also thought about aftermarket power feed which works in both directions.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 78009
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:13pm |
I’m trying to decide weather to shoot for completely original or mod it to work somewhat like I want.........
Been there, done that... thought that was Standard Operating Procedure ??? 
Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Dec 2022 at 6:14pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Tbone95
Orange Level Access
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 11400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 6:38pm |
B26240 wrote:
I'm with Brian C As far as I know no tapper shank will stay in with a side load |
Well, you can buy them, so….
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:02pm |
|
Without a drawbar the intermittent cut of the spacing of the cutters on an end mill will set up a chatter that will overcome the taper, that will be only the beginning of your headaches cause the sole place the end mill and tapered holder has to go is out and into the stock your milling. Get a grip here cause after that things tend to fly out into the stratosphere. Draw bar is only all thread rod with c collar.
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:05pm |
Tbone95 wrote:
B26240 wrote:
I'm with Brian C As far as I know no tapper shank will stay in with a side load |
Well, you can buy them, so…. |
Like Tbone I have seen tapered end mills that are not threaded but have the flat spot on the end like a tapered drill bit.
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:16pm |
|
The holder, they don't all em holders for nothing will hold it, the tapers what needs drawn.
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:26pm |
This is an endmill holder for sale on eBay. Not saying this is a good idea but just that they do make them that are not threaded for a draw bar. This one is advertised as a Brown & Sharpe 10 taper endmill holder.  
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:50pm |
|
Timex watches are waterproof too, at least till dropped in water. I won't run end mills without a setscrew onto a flat.
Edited by Walker - 21 Dec 2022 at 8:13pm
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 7:59pm |
Walker wrote:
Timex watches are waterproof too, at least till dropped in water.
|
yes sir you are correct. I hope you know I truly appreciate your input on this. I simply don’t know and that’s why I’m asking. I’m just trying to learn what I can before I buy any tooling that I can’t use or tear up stuff. I’ll either get the spindle drilled for a draw bar or not use anything but cutters to go on the correct arbor. Please keep the information coming.
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 8:21pm |
I've never seen a spindle without it being hollow on a mill. You want the option of at least one setscrew per tapered holder and two don't hurt. Try to find a used machinery dealer nearby that will sell by the pound.
Edited by Walker - 21 Dec 2022 at 8:36pm
|
|
Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Arkansas
Points: 9285
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 8:31pm |
Walker wrote:
I've never seen a spindle without it being hollow on a mill. You want the option of at least one setscrew per tapered holder and two don't hurt.
|
Do you mean set screws to hold the end mill in the holder? What about a holder with collets? When I get the mill home I’ll see what’s up with the spindle. I’m sure I’ll have lots more questions along the way.
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 8:45pm |
|
Yes can see em in second pic top of pic. Collets sound scary experience tells me stick with setscrews especially with end mills the bigger the mill the worse it gets. I got a gallon of Mt Dew glued to keyboard bear withhhhhhhh me.
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 8:54pm |
|
Your spindle has to be open or won't be able to knock tapered holders out. Oh yeah and B and S tapers are hard to find for some reason used. Collets run large monies.
Edited by Walker - 21 Dec 2022 at 9:00pm
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 9:06pm |
|
Probably has a left over tool holder nobody ever knocked out.
|
|
ac fleet
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Location: Arrowsmith, ILL
Points: 2217
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 11:44pm |
|
got a mill here too but with NO over arm on it.
|
|
http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
|
|
Walker
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: oh
Points: 8099
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 1:27am |
|
Soma do anda soma don't Brown and Sharpe is like old Cininnaties with 1 or 2 3or 4 dia rods you can run out and mount an arbor support or if your rich a vertical head on.
|
|
