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michale34 
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 Topic: ac undercarrage
Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 8:08am |
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does anyone know who still sells ac undercarrage parts I found a 6g and a 7g but both have bad undercarrage.
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Dozer
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 2:50pm |
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I have been looking unsuccesfully for pins and bushings for my HD6G. I am considering asking a machine shop to make them.
1) Does anyone have the specifications?
2) Can anyone recomend a shop that has done this?
3) Are their other people willing to purchase pins and bushings for an HD6 so that the group could get a better price for a larger quantity?
Even if I couldn't get the proper steel and heat treatment anything would be better than the track I have.
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Lazyts
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 3:30pm |
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I know where you could find a decent set of chains for the 7G, PM me if interested...
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orangeman
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 4:30pm |
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Dozer: Add me to your list if you decide to have a shop fab the bushings and Pins. Orangeman
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gemdozer
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 6:07pm |
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The company BERCO should have all the parts for undercariage for HD6-7
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Ages Cat
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 8:10pm |
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I have heard that Berco makes replacement under carriage parts, but they do not do it one set at a time. The must wait until they have enough orders to schedule a production run.
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Dozer
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 8:35pm |
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I tried Berco. The person I spoke with was no help. If it is true that they will do large orders then I need to find how many people are interested and speak to them again. Thanks for the info.
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Jay Tyrrell
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 9:51pm |
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Try Northern Tractor in Osseo Minn.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 28 Jun 2012 at 11:26pm |
Northern Tractor has had them in the past I have bought 2 sets of track from them . also can try Crawler Welding in Mankato MN , Norther Equipment in Duluth MN is another to try they also have shop out west in Idaho I believe. Thill Track and Tractor in Eau Clare WI is another source you can try I got a set of track for my FD5 from them
Size chart for track parts
Edited by Coke-in-MN - 28 Jun 2012 at 11:32pm
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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michale34
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Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 9:08am |
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well it was a strike out anyway I went and looked and the 6g was a lowlift old model that not only the tracks are shot he used dozer tracks on it and one of the oil plugs on the back of the final has been broken off probably full of water and no exhaust cover it would be a parts machine even if that. the 7g he has turned out be a old hd7 machine thats been in the briars bushes since the 50s with a lot of parts missing . when he said undercarrage was gone he mean gone.
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 3:47pm |
Coke and others, the bad news is I tried all the above looking for undercarriage pieces for my old 7G, turns out Berco has discontinued the line not stopped until orders build but discontinued, got that in a email from the parent company in broken english/italian translation. Nobody in the States is making 7.00 pitch nor are they considering to do so. Tried ITR, BERCO, Finney and assorted rebuilder operations to nothing is or going to be available. As our machines get along in years and wear we are looking at a total lack of availability down to whatever scrappers are left as to repair and replacement parts. Thill, Northern, all of them are down to a few odd old and well worn pieces, no complete rails, no extra pins or link parts what so ever. Machine shops are the last hope now or rebuilding what used rails we have or can get hold of. I was(kind of still am) looking into potential of changing sprocket rims and updating to a close Cat or JD rail but so far not coming up with dimension interchangables.
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michale34
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Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 4:21pm |
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thats kinda what i was thinking about trying to find cat rails and change the sprokets rollers
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 4:21pm |
DMiller
FWIW
Have a look at the track chains for Fiat Allis 10's. I have no details on rail heights/widths etc but they're pretty close to 7 inch pitch. The track pad bolts are 5/8 inch (on an otherwise metric dozer) and I've wondered if Fiat made use of an existing set of track chains.
And they use half sprocket segments, which might aid converting.
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DMiller
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Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 7:14pm |
Thanks Ian, been down that path: These people have a listing by machine for pitch, pin and bushing dimensions. This is where I started along with the chart from one of the previous posts links(Crawler Heaven) for rail dimensions. Looks like they utilized the old 7.00 pitch rails from the AC equipment for the 10 series, may have to look for rails from one of these for a set to build but shoes are too wide at 20 inch and mine at 15.
Edited by DMiller - 29 Jun 2012 at 7:15pm
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 4:50am |
DMillar,
Just checked my part book - there was a 450mm shoe available. Which is too wide for you too.
But if they are basically Allis chains, have you checked the bolt pattern? Your shoes might fit?
Night here, but come morning I could give you bolt centres and diagonals.
Will keep watching.
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DMiller
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 6:23am |
Thanks Ian, would be a plus for measurements, I am heading to the farm today where I do have a extra 6 links and can measure one of them to put in my file. Biggest issue I have had so far on CAT rails is they are narrower in the sprocket region, I have been looking at associates machines trying to get a feel for sprocket rims and segments for diameters as well. Cats 6.906 rails (175mm) with 15" pads/shoes(381+/-mm) are looking the closest they are generally SALT rail so do not wear as fast at the pin/bushing and retain measurement longer but do come close to the 7.00 (177.8mm) when worn. Cat dealer here does not want to sell a set of replaced rails due to liability but the parts man thought he may have a user that would sell me a set of worn rails as they replace them, they are trying to get a measure on the diagonal and 5/8"(15.875mm) bolt pattern of these rails with the slot size. These rails fit 951C, 953B series and 955K and may do fine on my old 7G sprockets due to wear on them. Sprockets are segmented on the 953B 955K and solid on the 951 but may not be able to use from any due to circumference/diameter issues, 953 is looking closest here and may end up having to get a rim machine cut to weld on the 7G sprocket.
Edited by DMiller - 30 Jun 2012 at 6:24am
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 10:38am |
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Have not measured my FD5 F/A against the HD5G track but looking at the two they are about the same rail height and such , the F/A track might be another option.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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gemdozer
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 10:58am |
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The hd7g ,hd9 and herlay hd11 use the same chaine (7" pitchs) and the patern bolts are 4.500x4.750 and 5/8 " bolts
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DMiller
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 11:56am |
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Thanks guys, dimensions and alternatives always worth looking at!
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 4:29pm |
I measured the bolt spacings on our FA 10 (eyeball centres)
Front bolts 138mm, rear 112mm, front to rear 60mm, diagonal 141mm
Sprocket width 68mm (new 69 - 70).
Service manual gives link pitch 175.92 - 176.08, link height 102.9 - 103.1, link thickness 38.5 - 39, bush OD 57.95 - 58.08, link pin 36.99 - 37.06 (all mm)
Sprockets 28 teeth, pitch circle dia 790,
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Dozer
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Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 10:14am |
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I have located a set of Berco pins and bushings for my HD6G. I had to pay big bucks for them. I plan to measure them and post the dimensions. My plan is to find a machine shop to make the set for the other chain. I talked to my Berco sales person who said that could resume production if they got orders for 500 sets. LOL Previously it was said to be 50 sets. He is going to check with the manufacturing facility in Italy. 50 sets might be a workable number as everybodys HD6 isn't getting any younger. The price of steel is quite high. I was thinking of contracting for 1040 TGP custom ground to the pin diameter and having it carburized after cutting to length. Does anyone know what the bushings are made of?
The Berco pins and bushings are made for Berco rails. None of my machines have Berco rails so after all of my searching they may not fit.
I wish I could find a good used chain.
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orangeman
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Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 10:57am |
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Dozer: Let me know if you proceed with the machine shop approach as I would be willing to partner on costs. Orangeman
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 1:23pm |
I have one new 'Master' Pin here so I did a little measuring: pin: 1.556 diam / 8.250 length Per my old parts guide a bushing should be 5 3/4" long for standard rail 4 15/16" for sealed, master link bushing is 4 5/8", diameter at the link ear areas of a old bushing is 2.310", ID is too wallowed for accuracy. I do have a new Berco master link set at the farm, I will measure the ID & OD on the new bushing and write again. If I can manage to keep the steering and trans functional on my old 7G I would consider new rails. The difference from HD6, 6GEP, 7G, HD11 and others wasn't the rails but the shoes and the rail link counts, mine uses 37 links a side. Would also like to see a Berco rail chain with the segmented no master pin link that bolts together and sealed pins/bushings to replace my old set. Had it out today for awhile, still flushing the crap from the steering clutches, can now get 15-20 minutes before load up filters, when first changed they only went 5 minutes so am making headway on the fourth set. Steers fine at first then notice the slowing as they load up until it darned near won't turn.
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Mactractor
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 4:24am |
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7G rails are way different to HD6/HD5. 7G track links are same as HD9 and dry steer HD11
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Dozer
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 6:25am |
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The track wear chart on the crawler heaven website says the HD7G chain pitch is 7 inches and the HD6 pitch is 6.495 inches. It also says that the Dresser BTD8, TD8, TD9, 125 & 150 have the same pitch as the HD6. This does not mean that the Dresser chains and pads fit the Allis Chalmers. Does anyone know if the Dresser rails are available? If rhe Dresser pins and bushings are longer than the AC parts perhaps they could be shortened to fit
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DMiller
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Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 9:25pm |
I stand corrected, and yes mine does have 7.00 pitch rails where a HD5 or 6 has the 6.495, I mistakenly put the HD6 down when I put in the 6EP but the EP did use the rail size under the 7G as listed in my service manual. By CH's chart the Dresser 175 used 7.00 pitch but the bushing/pin sizes are quite a bit different.
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Mactractor
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Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 5:14pm |
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When we ran out of Berco replacement track for AC down here 15-20 years ago, some tractors had Caterpillar track adapted. Dry steer HD11s (same links as 7G) had D5 track conversions. A solid disc was welded to the HD11 sprocket hubs, adapting D5 sprocket segments. I`m not sure if truck wheel alterations were needed on the 11s, but when they changed HD6s to D4 tracks, as well as adapting D4 7U sprocket rims to the HD6 hubs, they had to space the truck wheels away from frames a little, lifting the height of the tractors a little. Mac
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orangeman
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Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 9:10pm |
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Mactractor - Excellent retrofit details, appreciate your insights - very helpful. The HD6's are too good a machine to send to China.
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Dozer
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Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 6:48am |
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I received my Berco pins and bushings. My package was missing 5 bushings and 6 pins to complete the set. The Berco bushings are shorter than OEM AC bushings. There are 4 bellville springs to complete the bushing length. The master bushing has 4 spacers. Perhaps this is their attempt to seal the chain.
Comments please.
A set of pins and bushings weighs about 250#. O1 tool steel costs about $1.20/#. Raw material for making pins and bushings will be about $300 assuming we could find tubular tool steel. Making pins and bushings is going to be expensive but OK for the 5 bushings and 6 pins I am missing.
Comments about using O1 tool steel or 1040 TGP steel for pins and bushings.
What is the rail height for new HD6 chain? Does anyone have dimensions for HD6 chain? I have located a company in china that manufactures undercarage parts. This company has in the past manufactured for Berco. They can not however use Berco specifications to make parts for me. However if I was able to supply specifications they could make chains for me.
If anyone has specs for HD6 chains please help. I can also supply them with specs for HD7G chain also.
I have also purchased 4 HD6G chains with good rails so I will need 13" semi grousers more pins and bushings and track bolts. My hobby is getting out of controll.
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