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razorbackallis 
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 Topic: HD11E Bosch injection pump won't bleed air off
Posted: 03 Mar 2024 at 7:38pm |
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i have an hd11e dozer with American Bosch injection pump that hasn't been started in about 3 years. i put some air pressure in the fuel tank. when it last ran it ran good and always started real easy. I have fuel through the primary filter to the lift pump and back up to secondary filter and back out to the pump. when i crank the engine with the hose to the pump off the fuel pulses out of the filter head. Not sure how much fuel should be coming from the lift pump through the secondary filter. I loosened the bolt between the injector lines on top of the pump and get a small amount of fuel seeping out of there. Also a small amount of fuel coming out of some of the lines at the injectors but not always. Seems like its just not enough fuel to get it started. My question is is there anything that I need to try with the pump still on the machine? The fuel shutoff is in the run position and when last ran it wasnt left off. Thanks for any help
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Codger
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Posted: 04 Mar 2024 at 7:08am |
Fuel injection pump look like this:
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 04 Mar 2024 at 6:40pm |
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yes
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 04 Mar 2024 at 9:40pm |
IIRC there is an elbow that goes in the hole on the front (LHS in the photo) that has either a valve assembly or a restriction and goes to the fuel return.
If that was plugged could it prevent the primary pump getting fuel through and bleeding the last air?
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Codger
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Posted: 04 Mar 2024 at 10:07pm |
I suspect you have a stuck plunger in the barrel from stale diesel fuel. However if this is the case and the engine were rotated, it is possible there are broken parts internal to the hydraulic head. However, not always, and sometimes these can be freed up. I recommend the pump be pulled from the engine and taken to a fuel shop for repair and calibration.
In the photo, remove the cover with the two screws shown with the red diamond. Under here will be a linkage rod. This has to move easily. This is the fuel shutoff lever actuator. If it is frozen in position in the fuel shutoff position, there is probably no damage. Conversely, if the linkage is frozen in the run position, there is strong possibility of damage as the governor attempts to adjust the fuel rate during engine cranking and subsequent running as you had it fired on ether. Hopefully this is not the case as parts for those pumps are difficult to obtain.
As I see it from the sidelines, you need to pull the pump and send it in to a competent fuel shop. This can be where it gets really expensive to rectify the inexperienced "attempts" to get it going. Hard parts are very difficult to source for those pumps any longer so you may be scrounging around for a spell to find something used.
If you'll post the alphanumerics stamped into the tag shown with the yellow spot in the photo, I can drill down a bit further to see what you actually have. I've not worked with one of those PSB pumps in a long time, but remember them well. Wish it was easy to retrofit to the later Roosa-Master pump and it can be done, but takes quite a bit of effort and parts to make that happen.
Edited by Codger - 05 Mar 2024 at 12:02am
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 5:53am |
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ok. i will get a pic of the tag you referred to and post it. thank you
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DMiller
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 6:16am |
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Be ready and CALL the injection shop prior to just showing up. PSB series AB pumps are NO parts including gaskets or seals available any longer. Local to me shops will not even accept one for repairs.
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Codger
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 8:45am |
In your application does the injection pump drive also have a fan belts drive attached to the opposite end, or a flat plate on the front engine cover?
It would be very helpful to me if you could post photos of the area of the injection pump. As mentioned it's been years since I've worked with one of these pumps and going from ancient memory on a lot so a visual will be a great asset to have.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DMiller
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 5:21pm |
Was digging thru my old notes on IHC DT series engines, they had at one time used PSB pumps then changed to Inline Robert Bosch, are still a few companies selling conversion kits for those but nothing for AC. Takes a housing change, a Gearing change, some components at front of engine change and of course the Lines off the pump all change.
PSBs have always been a weak link no matter the end user.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 5:27pm |
It doesn'ttake a lot to over-ride the governor rod that controls the spill valve on the bottom of the head assembly.
We resurected an AC Forty Five grader - which was quite a saga. One "feature" was that the engine would run but if brought back to idle would then stall on opening the throttle.
One son is a heavy diesel mechanic and very patient. It took him most of a day to find there was a burr on the shaft between the governor rod and the spill valve that locked up under primary fuel pressure.
So it would be possible that the spill valve gummed up and not moving. If the fuel shut off was left on there ought to be no fuel getting to the plunger. You mention that it wasn't but if the throttle was at idle there might not be enough fuel to start the engine. You can disconnect the governor rod and feel if the spill valve is moving or not.
The plunger sticking could be hairy - if at the top of the stroke it ought to be OK. IIRC you can take the pieces out from under that plug in the centre of the head and feel if the plunger is moving.
All this is IIRC from about 10 - 12 years ago. Part of that saga
We scored an unused short motor from an Allis dealer liquidation that they never got a good set of heads for. It had a "rebuilt" pump - wires and all. We got heads and injectors and I got it running on a test stand with a gallon fuel tank. Next morning the contents were in the sump and there was the start of my saga on PSB pumps. The "reconditioned" pump was missing one of the O-rings under the head.
If you aim to take the head off you have to take out that hex head stud shown on the RHS of the head. It has a square section O-ring on the inner end which will stop the head coming off if it sticks in place. Treat very gently as it is unobtanium.
Edited by Ian Beale - 05 Mar 2024 at 5:33pm
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 6:38pm |
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I took a picture of plate on pump head. Can't seem to figure out how to show it to you. it has these numbers on it 90100A. There is a fan drive on the opposite side of pump mount. i can take more pics if i can figure out how to show them. The motor is AC 11000. Ser number 11600
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Codger
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 6:43pm |
This site is tough to post photos to for many.
Send me a PM with your email address I can reply to. I have some literature coming to help us along.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 05 Mar 2024 at 8:49pm |
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FWIW - If the head had been rebuilt that number would have "R" at the end
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 07 Mar 2024 at 4:30am |
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Codger
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Posted: 07 Mar 2024 at 7:31am |
[QUOTE=Ian Beale]Some reading on PSB's
[/QUOTE
The responder in that thread is very correct on the metering sleeve being frozen or suspect. Best take nothing for granted with these things. A stuck plunger is the least concern; it is what that plunger is stuck to and the operating apparatus that is concern. Break even the smallest part and the pump is down hard.
Hopefully we are not there with this pump.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 07 Mar 2024 at 6:57pm |
Another PSB site
And for the PSB collection -
I'd suggest getting a hard copy if you think you might need it as I nearly lost it when the original site went varnish
The one on the Ambac site has also gone
Seems there was an Allis bulletin on PSB pumps but I've never seen a copy |
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 11 Mar 2024 at 5:38am |
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I did forget to mention that I rotated the engine with the flywheel by hand before I cranked it. Would i have felt some resistance if something had been stuck?
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CAL(KS)
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Posted: 11 Mar 2024 at 8:00am |
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not likely
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Codger
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Posted: 11 Mar 2024 at 8:35am |
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No, you would not have felt this binding at all.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 11 Mar 2024 at 9:23am |
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Ok. Still working on getting things cleared out of the way to get to the pump
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razorbackallis
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Posted: 20 Mar 2024 at 6:58pm |
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Got the 11E started today with the help of Codger. Through emails, texts, and phone calls he led me through the process. Very knowledgeable and a nice guy too. Thanks again Codger. Now to see if she moves and turns.
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Codger
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Posted: 20 Mar 2024 at 10:23pm |
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No worries and happy to help.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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