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New and Improved Vehicles

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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New and Improved Vehicles
    Posted: Yesterday at 4:41pm
So last year my 2015 Jeep Cherokee died one below Zero day - battery just stoned itself overnight . OR SO I THOUGHT - it seems little signs showed up over a couple years with some features not working in dash . Stop / Start and odd times of warning lights - original battery from 2015 until 2025 - yet battery voltage varied which created problems 
  Other day went to start my 2010 GMC work truck - battery lit dash lights but when turning key nothing . cycled key on and off a few times and it started then died .
 Put charger on it to try to start , no go / Let charge a couple hours at 10 amps / Nothing 
Changed battery with one I had in shop - engine started - died in about 10 seconds 
 Charged battery couple hours - same 10 second run . After charging overnight started next day but dash gauges fluttering on and off and rough running engine .
 Checked output of alternator and was in 13 volt area 
Took battery out of other plow truck (2000 GMC) installed and truck started but dash fluctuated on and off on instruments .
   Seems the Alternator charge rate is set by the ECU now and unit has 4 wires - 2 to regulate and 2 to tell the ECU what to do about rest of charging system .
 Seems if voltage is not high enough ECU shuts down the engine , if battery voltage is low it will not allow alternator output to rise so control engine or dash , radio or other accessories - battery charger with High Amp Start cycle will not overcome ECU .
   So yesterday 2 new batteries as year old ones had internal problem - then after they were installed dash still flickered so new Alternator (160 Amp unit)and it runs , starts and gauges read steady .
Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel.
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 35 minutes ago at 12:04am
This more recent line of Hi-Tech garbage is not our friend. Been seeing this expanding over the last ten to fifteen years.
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 3 minutes ago at 5:36am
ECM controlling the alternator's field has become a 'standard' engineering practice, and I won't say it's a 'good' thing...

There's several things they're doing here... FIRST... is that they're increasing idle speed along with field current to push system voltage up when it's low (at idle).

Next thing they're doing, is shedding mechanical load (from engine accessories) to provide more horsepower at the wheels, when you request it.  On WFO they disengage the AC compressor and the alternator field... and while it doesn't seem like much, at the high end of the RPM band, the 15 ft-lbs or so constitutes 15hp or so that could be pushing the wheels... they let the AC pressure drop, and the battery carry the electrical loads for a few moments, and call it 'good'.

As far as all the rest of the goofy antics, a whole lot of wire and connector rot happens, and it doesn't take but a little, particularly in a ground strap, before things act crazy.  With electrical interlock switches everywhere, vehicles do this.

A friend of mine who is an engineer in the industry confirmed my suspicion about this- the inclusion of all this complexity helps accurately determine the point in service life which a consumer goes looking for a new vehicle.  The most powerful competetor to new vehicle sales, is USED VEHICLES... and used vehicle prices are the one thing that severely limits new vehicle prices.  If a consumer is tired of dealing with problems, their propensity to choose a secondhand vehicle will sour, which means they buy (and finance) something new.

Most will identify it as 'planned obsolescence', but it's certainly not a matter of being obsolete, it's simply a matter of making some point intentionally degradable in such a way that the vehicle's service life value drops off rapidly at some point which doesn't result in a safety recall or warranty storm.

Realize, it's a psychological war of attrition, and the companies that do this, are very, very careful to obfuscate HOW they do it.  One of the eariest tools is the "CHECK ENGINE LIGHT".  It was originally introduced because of limited display and processing capacity, but manufacturers found that it was a useful 'tool' for several things... like... having people bring in cars for unnecessary 'scheduled maintainance' visits.  They also used it as a tool to meet certain emmissions requirements (that manufacturers identified as resolvable by 'scheduled maintenance').  As time went on, manufacturers found that by making the CEL light come on for any possible reason (like aging ground wires) that owners would be more willing to simply buy a new car, and 'let the next person deal with it'.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 hours 26 minutes ago at 6:13am
Another GREAT write up Dave ! Confirms  what I've thought for decades and why 'old; stuff is better than new.Dave does explain WHY so many things, like appliances, are 'use once, buy another'.
Wonder if some smart guy will market a 'kit' of a 1 wire alternator and a 'fudge' connector to FIX, once and for all , the 'bad $1,000 alternators' we see today ?
While I've spent 1/2 my life programming  microcomputers' I see NO good reason to have the ECU control the alternator.it's just 'bad'.

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Lon(MN) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 hours 6 minutes ago at 6:33am
I bought a new Chev truck last year. I drove it home off the show room floor. The next day it would not start. An intermittent problem. After a lot of "We can't find the problem" It spent a few days at the dealer, they put a new battery in it. It's been fine for a year.
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PaulB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 15 minutes ago at 7:24am
All of the above is why my newest vehicle is a 1989 and I'll never buy anything newer.
  If I were to drive a new vehicle off the lot and then it wouldn't start the next day, it would remain at the dealer after getting towed there, sounds like a LEMON right from the start.
 MY mechanical diesels will get me home if nothing whatsoever in the electrical system is working. I've had to do that a couple of times, but they always get me home. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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