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cmsmoke 
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 Topic: CA Steering box on C
Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:57am |
After alot of work on my Gemmer sterring box, I'm still not happy with it. I believe the gears have a set pattern in them after many years of use, and not being adjusted properly. There is no slop, without any binding, but is everybit as hard to steer as before. The front end is set up and shimmed properly as well. On a possitive note, there is no more "headshake".
It is time to move on and use a better, more modern box. I have read where the "CA" box has an extra button in it, to help with wear issues and was looking for some thoughts/answers.
Years ago my Grandfather installed a different steering box on my Uncle's "C". It has almost twice the number of tuns lock to lock and is like power steering. Unfortunately he has long since passed and my Uncle can't remember or never had known what it was off of. He recalls possibly Kaiser/Fraiser car, but short of an AACA show, there aren't many around to compare. He still has the tractor and it looks factory.
If anyone retrofitted a totally different box to a "C", I would like to hear about it. In the meantime I have a few questions on "CA" parts.
Will a "CA" box fit a "C"? I know part #'s are different.
Does a "CA" steer any better than a "C"?
Will the "CA" support plate fit the "C" torque tube?
Are the tapers on the steering arms the same to fit the drag link?
Has anyone done this?
Thanks
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:16am |
The CA box will fit on the torque tube and work. I think you will need the steering arm as well, I have a good CA Ross steering box up at the plant that I have started to clean up. I have not compaired the splines on the cross shaft between the two.
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:28am |
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I don't notice any differance in effort between my C with a Gemmer Box and my CA with a ross box. The ross box will bolt in in place of a Gemmer. Do you Have A short Arm C they steer harder than a long arm. My C has headshake but its in the drag link. I've been going to replace it just haven't found one yet. its been a low priorty since the tractor never leaves my yard.
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 10:13am |
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I am also hitting the "brick wall" with my Gemmer steering box. The eccentric is suppose to be for the gear mesh, but it effects the angle where the post meets infront of the steering wheel. I am considering replace it with a CA steering box, but the box I have is in bad shape also. All steering boxes will have the most wear on the position that the wheels are straight. The steering arm spline maybe different. The C has three non machined splines, and I have not looked at the CA steering arm to determine if they are the same. If they are different, the arm will have to come off of a model CA also. The CA has a shorter steering tube. The modle C can be cut to the length of the CA steering tube. What are your options for the bushing near the steering wheel?
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junkman
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 10:27am |
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Just a idea as I read these posts and if I sound crazy then fill free to tell me. But poor guys sometimes have poor ways. Now I have never looked at the gears in one of these boxes before but if there is on spot prone to wearing more then others, why couldn't a person reface the high spots to mach the low spot. I know it would not be easy and would require patience to do it right. But if yours is junk all ready, might try getting the grinder out and try it then shim up as needed. Just a thought for if this poor boy had that problem, I would try it.
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cmsmoke
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 1:06pm |
I have the long arm version.
Boomer, there is an eccentric rivit at the bottom that has a slot in it for a screwdriver. You must turn this at the same time as the adjusting sleeve. Someone told me in an earlier post, that it is easier to do it while the box is mounted to the tractor. Loosen the top clamp before you start. It worked for me.
The splines are deffinately different on the arms. The "C" has 3 unmachined spots as Boomer said. The "CA" is splined the whole circumference equally and the "CA" is bigger diameter.
Junkman, That would be very hard to do as the 3 teeth on the sector shaft would need to be exactly the same and to try and grind the worm gear around like a screw evenly would be a nightmare. I'm afraid I would end up with numerous tight and loose spots throughout its travel. I hate to totally ruin it. It still works and somebody else may need it.
The reason I thought the "CA" would steer a little easier is that the Gemmer on th"C" is 4 turns lock to lock. The "CA" Ross box is very close to 5. I could be wrong, as mentioned above.
I just got "CA" box from Chris/Ct, but I would need an arm and a support. They are not the same as we discussed (Ken in Texas also looked up numbers for me). I may continue on with this now that I know it will fit. It sounds like I may be a little disappointed in the steering effort, but mine just isn't right.
Edited by cmsmoke - 22 Apr 2011 at 1:07pm
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 1:25pm |
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Junkman, I was thinking the same thing. If it could be set up with some kind of fixture it could be done. Doing it by hand a guy could use up a lot of time and a lot of high spot bluing to get it right. When I was working, we used an outfit around St.Louis,Mo to make new gears for oddball stuff. If there was a market for them, a guy could make up new sectors to replace the ones worn in the middle.
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junkman
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 1:44pm |
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Without ever looking at one, I was just speculating the feasibility. I don't really know how many thousandths they wear but if it is in one spot maybe building it up and then machining it down would be easier. you couldn't use a convintional grinder but maybe a flexible cut off blade. I know Junkman your crazy, but some times we need to think outside of the box.
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 2:03pm |
I have to differ with yall on adjusting the Gemmer on the tractor. Take a look at the pictures I took when I was repairing and adjusting one. You do have to get your eyes onto what you are doing as well as think your way thru what is happening inside the box after it is back on the tractor. You have to adjust the teeth for clearance at the outer teeth lock to lock and not just the center. You also have to adjust the clearance taking into accout the depth the teeth enter the screw. You may have to assemble and disassemble more than once to get it in your mind how far the teeth need to enter.
On a used steering box it is hard to find two that have the exact same ware that will adjust the same instructions.
On the bench so to speek is where you can turn things ever which but loose to see what is going on. Most of these Gemmer steering boxes have a good place where they will work smooth without extra play in the steering wheel.
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cmsmoke
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 2:50pm |
I did alot of searches on Gemmer steering boxes and never saw that thread. Could you point me toward it?
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 4:07pm |
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Interesting! I did not think about the adjusting the single bolt with locking nut while adjusting the depth. Also, I had this thing apart so many times, I also missed the stud with the conical/tapered insert is also offset. I may get this thing to work after all. I will let you all know how it works out.
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Ted J
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 4:10pm |
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bump
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 4:32pm |
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What has other people done about the bushings in the steering tube near the steering wheel? The part I got from agco is not going the work.
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 4:51pm |
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Figured it out, the top right stud that houses the tapered bushings is the "other eccentric". I might actually make some progress tonight! Thanks for the help, I would up load a picture, but the forum won't except pictures via iPhone.
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 5:14pm |
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I turn up a piece of hard wood for the top bushing. I figured that if a wooden bushing would work on an old IH disc for a bearing that it sure would work up out of the sand and mud. I have never had a wooden bushing in the steering tube go bad or rust fast.
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Pipe
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 5:20pm |
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I have a gemmer box for sale if anyone needs it. Just the box the tube is bent from a rollover.
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:51pm |
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Should have read the post about a hardwood bushings before my latest stunt! I decided to use the CA tube because the bushings was intact. Of course it was to short, and I a left over jeep steering tube that was the same size. So I decided to put on an extension the CA tube. Cut the Jeep tube 3", and slit the pipe. I have two original clamps, so I was attempting to install....when my hand slip off of the clamp making a really deep cut in my middle finger Like always, my wife arrived at that very moment seeing my hand covered in blood. I was forced against my will to the doctor for stitches. Oh well, probably needed a tetanus shot anyway. I was trying to save money, only ending up with a DR bill now. Would a oak bushings be good enough?
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junkman
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:55pm |
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Find you a piece of seasoned orange wood of course. Osage Orange to be correct or better known as Hedge.
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DREAM
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:03pm |
Boomer, that's Karma paying you back for chopping up perfectly good Willys parts. LOL!
Sorry, hope it didn't take too many stitches.
I know everyone has been saying Gemmer steering boxes on the Cs, but my 1946 had a Ross box on it when I got it. Not sure if it was original, but it was worn out. The steering box that I replaced it with was from a 1949 model, and was also a Ross. I believe they both had the 3 missing splines. I think someone told me that later Cs used Ross boxes. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Edited by DREAM - 22 Apr 2011 at 8:06pm
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I didn't do it! It was a short, fat, tall, skinny guy that looked like me!
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Boomer
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:19pm |
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It was a really bent up steering tube. That's why I used it, it pained me to do it! LOL
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DREAM
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:27pm |
I would say it did pain you, especially the next day after that finger was nice and sore. I was just makin some humor. I had a 51 Willys that was probably responsible for more scars than anything else I have owned. That little rascal was just like my C, not much to look at, not real big and mean, but had more guts and could do more than machines twice it's size.
Let's go back to talkin about steering boxes before I get accused of hijacking.
I would say that the Ross box from a later C would be a good fix for the problem. I have heard that they had a little better setup, and were easier to adjust than the Gemmer boxes. Anyone else know about this?
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I didn't do it! It was a short, fat, tall, skinny guy that looked like me!
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pumpkin man
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Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 9:13pm |
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Rubber shock absorber bushings out of the bottom end of old shocks works good for the top bushing may have to grind the o.d. a little lube it up tap it in with a deepwell socket
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cmsmoke
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 8:28am |
"C" tubes were 40-11/16" long w/Gemmer, 40-1/4" long w/Ross, "CA" 39-3/4". If you can't make the right length or can't slide it up on the upper housing cover, go to your local muffler shop and get a piece of 1-1/2" exhaust tubing. Remember to drill the needed drain holes in it.
How is the hand doing Boomer? I hope it isn't too bad and you are working on your "C" again.
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GlenninPA
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 8:35am |
DREAM,
They switched the C to Ross box from Gemmer around 42xxx serial number. Don't have the book in front of me.
Glenn
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Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance.
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.
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DREAM
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Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 8:25pm |
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Yeah, I think both of mine were above that Glenn. Just wondered if that was the norm, or if they had been retrofitted.
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I didn't do it! It was a short, fat, tall, skinny guy that looked like me!
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Ted J
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 5:54am |
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Boomer, if you took pics with your iphone, I would like to see the pics. PM me if you have any. I know that I will be going through the same thing in a couple of weeks. My steering wheel goes about 180 degrees without the front wheel moving. I thought it might be simple to dig into, but after reading your post.... Thanks, Ted
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 8:57am |
cmsmoke, did ya miss the link at the bottom of Dick's post on the gemmer box?
It's informative even if the titles seem a bit off.
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cmsmoke
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 5:53am |
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SteveC-Yes, I see it now. Thanks
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Dick L
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 9:37am |
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The titles need to be changed along with a lot of other stuff I don't seem to get to. I batch load pictures into the site and they all get the same title. I then have to go in and change them if I want or actually for some reaso need to. (:^D
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Boomer
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Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 11:28am |
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