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Farm Leasing |
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Scott B ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2013 Location: Kansas City Points: 1047 |
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My Grandparents lost/forced to give up their farm NW Missouri due to the residual impact of the depression and my two Uncles heading off to WWII. My Mother passed a year ago and held strong memories (one room school house, no running water, no electricity, outdoor plumbing, etc); so obviously part of this is emotional decision.
The land is now up for sale (the house long gone but foundation remains). Think I'm going to go take a look and consider purchasing. If I do, I wouldn't be able to do any of the work until I retire 8-10 years outs so I'd want to lease the ground for farming and also consider hunting leases. Figure this group is a pretty good start to school me on ins/out of farm leasing and I'm certain some of you probably do the hunting side as well. Any thoughts are appreciated.
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D17 Series 1
Allis B- 1939 Allis B- 1945 |
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24480 |
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A lot may depend upon size of the farm, but I've heard it here, that 5 yr lease would be the minimum. I'd check with local farmers to see if THEY are interested in using the land. Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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DanWi ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: wttn Points: 1909 |
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Lots of questions total acres? tillable land? field size? woods? swamp? road access? row crops? or pasture?
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7060 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Missouri Points: 1148 |
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I doubt any of the 5 year leases are going to look very appealing right now unless it’s A+ ground. Cash rents are coming down here as they should with the prices.
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Scott B ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2013 Location: Kansas City Points: 1047 |
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It's about 40 acres tillable and in row crop. I know a bordering neighbor so know the ground is good on the high end. It's also well terraced in places. No fences so no livestock. Balance of the ground (one end and bordered) with woods. Good road access with a small concrete block building and electric.
Think I'm going to go take a closer look tomorrow.
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D17 Series 1
Allis B- 1939 Allis B- 1945 |
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TimCNY ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2014 Location: Upstate NY Points: 1551 |
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Actually, and forgive me for saying so, the best place to start is with your lawyer. Next is your insurance company; even if the lease contains necessary verbiage requiring them to obtain and keep in place all the proper insurance(s), you'd still want to carry liability insurance. Murphy's Law. I know when we went to buy another farm adjacent to ours, the huge sticking point was the owner's cousin. The owner inherited the farm from her father (he had to quit working it almost 20 years before he died, it was since rented out), she being an only child, but her cousins used to hunt the land for decades, even when they were from time to time banned from doing so. The issue was, the owner wanted to keep good relations with the cousin's family. So, I suggested a 5-year conditionally renewable exclusive hunting lease that I'd make with them. They loved the idea, but both my lawyer and insurance company were absolutely against it because of the potential for high risk to which we'd open ourselves. Their reasoning was sound, we didn't offer the lease, they decided to take a different offer and another neighboring farmer bought that farm. Sunk a fortune into it. Now, he's screwed because the lease wasn't properly worded, and the cousin won a lawsuit enforcing the "exclusive" part; the new owner cannot be in, or travel though for ingress or egress, any location deemed by the cousin or his family as "hunting land." And the lease did not limit what type of hunting, so even though now deer season is over, the cousin's family is there hunting small game during the day, predators during the day and at night, all the while thumbing their noses at the new owner and thinking that it's all righteous and that they have the right since they've been using the property for so long... it's sad. So, ideas may come from here and maybe they'll be the best ideas you'll hear, I'm just throwing it out there that any "advice" that you receive outside of the professionals you pay to represent or protect you is worth - well, what you pay for it. And you cant recover any losses from "us" for our ideas you choose implement that turn out to bite you. Good luck, I hope it works out terrific for you!
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Fogarty ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 16 Aug 2018 Location: Mn Points: 199 |
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I wouldn’t lease it for hunting.
We thought about that on our farm in the past. Insurance man said if anyone gets hurt while on your land the land owner is responsible. That’s only if they pay to hunt. |
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John (MO) ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: NEMO Points: 202 |
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I'm on the other side of the state but I doubt things are all that different. The more successful farmers have equipment that won't hardly turn around on 40 acres. Smaller operators usually have a higher per acre overhead and can't pay as much, unless they are producing a speciality crop. Hunting leases are similar, the big outfitters have hundreds of acres under lease and aren't interested in small acreages unless they are already leasing neighboring ground. Leases to individuals, in my opinion can be unchanged more troublesome. I know this isn't what you are hoping to hear but much has changed over the years for an operation to be successful. Production costs are high, labor costs are high, and margins are small. Around here, smaller operations are usually either absorbed by big operators or become hobby farms for families with very successful off farm income. An agricultural lender will want a very detailed business plan before they consider helping you make a purchase. But that is where I would suggest you begin the process.
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john(MI) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SE MI Points: 9262 |
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If it's being farmed now find out who it is and just duplicate what is in place.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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tomNE ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1225 |
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when I leased mine out; I figured out what kind of a return I wanted. Second step was protecting my topsoil. I rent mine on shares. I like it because the best years are cash friendly and protecting my topsoil and organic matter, allows me to weather the dry yrs.
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AC from the start of my families farming career till the end!
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Stan IL&TN ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Elvis Land Points: 6730 |
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I'm with John, find out who is farming it now and see if they would like to continue doing it. Our farm is also rented out in shares on a 1/3 and 2/3 split.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
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Dick L ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Edon Ohio Points: 5087 |
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I cash rent my farm. It pays the taxes or close to it.
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Gary Burnett ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 3047 |
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For the people that rent on shares,especially ones that are absentee landowners how do you know you are not getting cheated?
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Scott B ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2013 Location: Kansas City Points: 1047 |
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That's one of my biggest concerns. Been workin in business/ finance my entire life and know all too well how easy it is to twist the numbers around |
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D17 Series 1
Allis B- 1939 Allis B- 1945 |
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old farmer ![]() Silver Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Oct 2011 Location: Sturgis, Mich Points: 341 |
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It’s surprising how many times a load or two disappear. I even heard guys bragging about how much extra grain they got. No share cropping for us.
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tomNE ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1225 |
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reporting yields to crop insurance pretty much can prove a bad renter out in a heart beat!
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AC from the start of my families farming career till the end!
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GARY(OH/IN) ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 19 May 2010 Location: Findlay,Ohio Points: 917 |
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Is the land in a progressive area where there are more than one possible tenant? Do you know the market for land in that area? If not find out what similar parcels have brought per acre recently. Do some drive bys to get some comparisons. Look at soil types also with tiling being a plus. If this is on the open market with a a realtor or a sign and no one has bought it, it's likely over priced. If you have some inside info and it's a deal don't talk to the neighbors until you have it under contract. Smaller stuff I have is cash in full in the spring, farms are rented with three payments during the year which will create a little more rent. Don't do shares! Period! Especially with freiends and relatives! I understand your wanting to own this particular farm. Don't hesitate if serious.
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modirt ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Location: Missouri Points: 8446 |
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I think there are still some gaps in information OP has provided. As in total acres. 40 acres tillable but how many acres of other? A hunting lease may or may not work for him. A lot of land in NW MO is leased for hunting, but only under controlled conditions. Good rule of thumb in that area is that if hunting is any good, it will get hunted.....the only question is by whom? With or without permission and will the owner get any benefit from it. If he is not going to hunt it himself, he may want to get some benefit from it. Other ideas on leasing are right in line with expectations.........which is to say patterns of leasing are highly dependent on location and tradition. Cash rents, share rents.....and even share rent patterns all tend to be typical and customary in certain locations. We have 3 farm tenants. One tenant is a close relative, the second a distant relative and neighbor and the 3rd tenant is one of the largest farm family operations in the area and they own adjacent land. They are the best tenants we have......they do the best job, give us the best deal and are 100% trustworthy. The worst, by far, is the close relative. In our area, cash rents are almost unheard of. 95% plus of all rented land is on half share agreements. Handshake deals. Landlords and tenants know each other and if it ever got out that a tenant had pulled a fast one, they would be done. Publicly scorned and shunned. Plus for every good farm, there are 10 good tenants waiting in the wings to take over, so they can't afford to take a chance. Having said that, it does pay to pay attention. When mom and dad retired, a neighbor asked for the farm and got it, then unilaterally changed the lease from 50:50 to 60:40....in his favor. He was warned, then did it again and was subsequently fired. That was nearly 30 years ago and they are still barely on speaking terms today. The tenants you really have to watch out for in our area are the guys offering cash rents. The higher the rent offer, the more suspect they become. Those guys are bad about taking a farm that is up to test on fertility and mining that out for 2 or 3 years......running it down in the process, then moving on. Stewardship is a foreign concept. But in other areas, that is the "typical and customary" and it works fine with no problems. If you can handle the risk and get the right operator working for you, most profitable lease is to have the place custom farmed. You pay all the expenses and get all the income. Trick there is to find an operator who will do yours on a timely basis. |
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tomNE ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1225 |
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modirt echo's my thoughts!
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AC from the start of my families farming career till the end!
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ac fleet ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Jan 2014 Location: Arrowsmith, ILL Points: 2331 |
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X-2 on modirt!
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Charles (KY) ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: Kentucky Points: 132 |
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Around here the larger farmers grid all the fields, have a company come in and take soil samples before a crop is planted. Variable rate fertilizer trucks are used to spread fertilizer. These samples are taken every year. At the end of the rent contract, samples are taken again and the fertility has to be as good or better than the initial fertility. This is usually written in the rent contract. I would never rent out my farm without this in the contract. This is done if the farm is cash rent or sharecropped.
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soybreedingboy77 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 14 Dec 2011 Location: Illinois Points: 185 |
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Be careful about putting in a provision in the lease that requires the tenant to pay if fertility levels drop.
That provision was in our "county farm" lease. BTO from 30 miles away won the cash rent bid against some local farmers. After 3 year lease soil samples were pulled and the county got a bill because the fertility levels went up. Legal opinion was that if payment of (x)$ for P level dropping (x) points, when P level on second soil test read (x) points higher that the tenant needed to be paid for that fertility. County reimbursed almost a full year of cash rent on 3 year lease. Soil tests are very easy to manipulate (if you know what you are doing) with regard to sampling process, time of year, moisture level of soil at time of sample. What seems like a good provision can come back to bite you in the ass. Edited by soybreedingboy77 - 07 Jan 2019 at 4:49am |
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Tbone95 ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 12080 |
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What do you mean by that?
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tomNE ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1225 |
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yields have to be reported; if your and his don't jive, someone is in the wood shed. also if your agent is worth his salt; he will answer when asked how your yields stack up to other comparable farms in your area, then in your lease there is a provision that says he must pay ALL legal costs if suit is brought against him. Around me we probably have 2 cheaters and everyone knows who they are. If you allow your renter to make money and treat him as a partner, very few/none will cheat you. They don't wanna even have there name associated with cheating a landloard as that brand will follow them to the grave. Everyone of there other landlords will start looking at them cross eyed! I interviewed 23 prospective renters when mine came up for rent and never worried once about any of them cheating me. I'm also of the stanch feeling that if my tenant cannot make money farming for me, then it will not be a match made in heaven!
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AC from the start of my families farming career till the end!
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Tbone95 ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 12080 |
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OK, I'm with you now. I didn't take it that way at all the first go 'round!
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Gary Burnett ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 3047 |
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The problem I see with all that and the original poster is he is not living in the area,doesn't know many people around where the farm is located,if anyone was ripe to be cheated a little on a shares deal it'd be him.If it were me in that situation I'd want my rent money up front.Opportunity and money is a bad combination many times.
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Sugarmaker ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8448 |
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Buy the family farm! Set up a camp there. Let someone farm it for a reasonable cost. Plan to build a retirement home and hunt there for fun. Enjoy!
Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Lars(wi) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 7906 |
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Depending on topography, although total crop acres is low, and mentioned it is terraced, put in any lease, a crop rotation provision, maybe even a max. percentage of acres allowed in a ‘row crop’ at any time. No fall tillage if land is over ‘X’ degree of slope.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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tomNE ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: dorchester, ne Points: 1225 |
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My renter and i work together as partners. cash rent, is our area, bring all the miners. They mine everything good out of the soil and when they ruined it, they give up the rent!
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KenBWisc ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: Fall Creek, WI Points: 1184 |
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The above statements underscore the complexity of the rental decision. Much more than can be covered here. I strongly advise you to obtain input from those local to where the farm is located. Land owners, renters attorneys and lenders. Each will have their own perspective based on their experiences and what works in their favor, not necessarily yours. You will have to determine this on your own, possibly with guidance from an unbiased source such as the local county or area extension crops/ financial specialist.
Land rental values are determined first by productivity followed by local demand along with the owner’s desired rate of return on investment; usually determine by the interest rate offered on the next best investment with a comparable level of risk. Often, this is a CD. The renter is concerned with potential profit. When the owner is concerned with profit and a reasonable return, then they must take on a portion of the production risk along with the renter. Owners who are completely risk averse prefer straight up cash rent. Of course this results in a different type of risk exposure as it must be realized this places complete risk on the renter which may influence production decisions; ie fertility mining. The bottom line is that the assumption of risk must be compensated just like when you pay an insurance company to take on a portion of your asset or production risk exposure. Like shared risk when you buy insurance, land ownership-rent relationships don’t have to be to one extreme or the other but may be shared. Much of this will be driven by each person’s individual goals for the relationship, land productivity level and local conditions. Every form of rental agreement is successful somewhere. The ones that are taboo in your neiborhood may determine which may succeed in your area. As for liability, a person’s level of liability is defined based on their relationship with others. Your assigned legal liability is defined as what a reasonable person will do in a comparable situation to protect their cohort. An example given your property contains an old homestead site is if an abandoned well exists it is your legal duty to inform users of your land of this hazard. You may want to consider the old foundation in a similar light. If you don’t and personal injury occurs as a result of the hazard you may be found liable for damages. Renting 40+ acres for both production and hunting could prove challenging. It’s a small area. You may want to consider one dedicated use or the other. Another approach would be to allow hunting outside the cropping season. When ever you receive payment for use of your assets your commitment to that party to protect their well being is inhanced. Some states recognize this by providing legal protections when land owners allow public access to their land. When you charge for this access the relationship changes. Liability insurance only pays to defend you in a trial where your negligence is claimed. It also may pay if you are found guilty of negligence up to a defined limit but only if the instance is not excluded in the policy. Liability insurance doesn’t cover accidents. Fortunately resources are available to inform you of your options, rights and responsibilities in determining land rental rates, contract options and associated liability exposure. |
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'34 WC #629, '49 G, '49 B, '49 WD, '62 D-19, '38 All Crop 60 and still hunting!
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