Ferguson inspired Allis's engineers?

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   http://www.ferguson-museum.co.uk/3_point.htm

circa 1928 Looks like same geometry as the pin hitch and snap coupler systems.  Seems that Allis waited until ferguson's early, unused patent expired before releasing their design.
anyone have details on the development of the Allis hitch  system?

karl f

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kffischer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 26 Feb 2011 Location: mn Points: 121	Post Options Post Reply Quote kffischer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Ferguson inspired Allis's engineers? Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 12:24pm
	http://www.ferguson-museum.co.uk/3_point.htm circa 1928 Looks like same geometry as the pin hitch and snap coupler systems. Seems that Allis waited until ferguson's early, unused patent expired before releasing their design. anyone have details on the development of the Allis hitch system? karl f

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Kcgrain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Points: 792	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kcgrain Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 1:22pm
	I am not sure what you were looking at, because I didnt see any similarity between the ferguson, system and Allis Chalmers, and if you ever used either system you would see that the Allis system worked way better and faster to react than the Ferguson . Not only that , other than the snap coupler part, the AC system was copied by everyone else and is still used to day where the sensing is done by the lower links and not the top.

Nathan (SD) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Day County SD Points: 1277	Post Options Post Reply Quote Nathan (SD) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 1:47pm
	Did you look at the web link KC? He is talking about fergusons Duplex Hitch. It was a upside down 3pt just like AC. 1 lower pull link and 2 upper lift link.

Orange Blood Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 29 Nov 2010 Location: ColoradoSprings Points: 4053	Post Options Post Reply Quote Orange Blood Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 2:00pm
	I have to agree iwth KC Grain here, no disrespect but snap coupler was all about speed and ease of hitching, that fergusson design, while similar in geometry, in itself is not faster to hitch than todays 3-point design. While it's possible, I highly dought that Allis engineers took anything from this design, since the drawbar whitch had been around for years is a single low point tow, both simply added lift capability, later Allis came up with the snap coupler for speed.
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Coke-in-MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41947	Post Options Post Reply Quote Coke-in-MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 2:29pm
	The Ferguson hitch was a step forward and ended up being a patent that was in dispute with Ford , this tied it's use up for many years and rather than standardize implements led to things like IH Fast Hitch and other tries to come up with the right draw type attachments for Ag use. Like many inventors he came up with many ideas that were ahead of their time and when one looks over the full site in link one can see he had many talents in inventing and improving things both in England and in other countries .
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kffischer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Silver Level Joined: 26 Feb 2011 Location: mn Points: 121	Post Options Post Reply Quote kffischer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 3:39pm
	saving a click for you--this is the photo I was referencing from the Ferguson link. Notice the lower tug for pulling the load and the upper arms that only lift and lower. I would hypothesize that the design basics are close enough that had Allis came out with their hitch layout during the patent period of this hitch, I would bet there'd be some legal action between Ferguson and Allis. observable differences: early F system as pictured appears to mount to pto area behind rear axle, Allis anchors forward of axles like a good drawbar design for optimum towing behavior (especially safety). F system ties up PTO and unit must be removed for pto work or towing, Allis left PTO free and in place and drawbar could be switched in seconds. Interesting to see ideas that didn't catch on initially but later were revised by another entity. karl f Edited by kffischer - 12 Sep 2011 at 3:40pm

orangeman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 1847	Post Options Post Reply Quote orangeman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 7:20pm
	One should look at an ED40 to see what the Essendine Allis Engineers were up to, there are a number of very similar Massey parts on the Allis ED40

Kcgrain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Points: 792	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kcgrain Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 11:06am
	I did see the picture, but still dont see the similarities, the ferguson has the 3rd point facing the back, or like the picture said its upside down to what we see today, allis on the other hand pulled from the center of the trator, as stated above, by someone else. I guess you would have to look up the years involved and see if maybe an AC engineer didnt look at the ferguson system and get a better idea, or if AC was desiging and perfecting there system before or during the furgeson hitch.My guess is knowing what I do about Allis Chalmers the furgeson system didnt work to there standards so they designed there own, hence the reason AC had high pressure lo volume compared to the rest of the world, and now the world has seen the light and the pressures are closer to AC was way back when.