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FREEDGUY 
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 Topic: Engineering That Built....
Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 6:47pm |
The World question. Tonights episode is on the rail tunnel through a mountain that was started on 2 different sides of the mountain and ended up being within 2 inches of offset when converged  ! What type of surveying/navigation did they use in the latter 1800's to get that type of precision ??
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 6:51pm |
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An abacus?, not really sure. I do know nowadays what is taught in our gooberment schools, we wouldn’t have a chance in he!! of getting that close.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 7:43pm |
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The surveyed from the east coast most of the way to California 200 years ago.. Those markers are still in place today and very accurate... How do you go 1000 miles west and be off a foot when you get there... WITHOUT a computer or GPS !!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 7:50pm |
Surveying required knowledge of basic geometry, and surveyors learned to see land as a linear jigsaw puzzle. When preparing a survey return, they constructed perpendiculars, proportionally divided lines, and reduced irregular polygons into triangles. These skills, coupled with basic arithmetic, allowed them to adjust field measurements to account for the curvature of the earth, calculate the area of irregular shapes and ovals, discover elevation, divide a piece of land several ways, and scale surveys to fit a map. Elite surveyors such as Andrew Ellicott (1754–1820), who worked on Pennsylvania’s boundary surveys, paired these skills with observations of the stars to find a meridian line, calculate latitude, and find the altitude and zenith of any star in the sky. Surveyors used a device called a theodolite (such as in this nineteenth century photograph) to measure horizontal and vertical angles by measuring the angle between magnetic north (or another bearing of the surveyor’s choosing) and a fixed point in the landscape. (Library of Congress) Before 1750, there were few local instrument makers, and surveyors relied on English manufacturers for their tools, which included the magnetic compass, circumferentor, theodolite, Gunter’s chain, level, and plane table. A competent surveyor maintained and repaired his instruments as needed, however, inaccurate compasses and damaged or stretched chains remained a common source of error throughout the colonial period. The most important drafting instruments were the protractor, plain and diagonal scales, and the trigonometric table.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 9:36pm |
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Same way engineers and surveyors did before GPS became the instruments to set lines . Grade is easy , offset or the line of center to met would be somewhat harder
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 3:49am |
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What is scary is the inherent dependence of GPS on setting or cutting grade and our now ever moving N Pole that may shift hard S where 99% of the dependent devices will be worthless for a time.
Skills, hand honed Skills is the key.
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truckerfarmer
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 4:47am |
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Finding operators competent enough to follow the GPS is getting harder these days also. I deal with that at work all the time.
I learned to survey with an old school transit, so maybe I'm a little biased. Out of 7 of us, I'm the only one that can understand how to run a grade by reading the elevation. If the program goes down the rest of the guys are screwed, even though elevation, latitude and longitude are displayed on the screen at all times, if the little arrows aren't showing them what to do, they are lost.
Edited by truckerfarmer - 01 Nov 2021 at 5:09am
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DMiller
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 4:58am |
I had a 'MAP' out the other day, kid looked at the piece of paper and asked "What the hell is that?" told him 'M' 'A' 'P', IE MAP, a paper cartouche facsimile of the roads we drive upon. Then he said mockingly, how can you see the road without using Maps on Google and diving into Street View, or seeing the landmarks to know where at? Told him was easier for me to look at this than his oft WRONG GPS. As to landmarks, the property owner gave me several I noted down, showed him the list.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 6:07am |
Kid comes to pickup a riding mower. Ok, first 'fun' was squeeeeeezing it into his Toyota van, then the real fun. Asks how to get to the highway. Hmm he just came from there, but drove here from the south ! Seems his phone saw a closed road and took him on a 'ride in the country'..sigh. I said, 'EASY, up to the school, turn right, then left, then right at the lights'. You can SEE the hwy from my place,sigh. I had to say the shpeel 6-7 times as he twothumbed it into his phone. Kinda wondering if he ever made it home !! City repaved my road 3 years ago..raised it, now 1,000s of gallons of their water race through my old property,new owner ain't happy with the friggin LAKE that forms EVERY rainstorm....NO 'instruments' were used during roadwork ! No fancy GPS gizmo, no theodolite, no transit, not even a tape measure..and it took 9 guys and 2 gals to repave 1/2 my driveway 5 months later to almost get rid of the 4" high 'mini' lake.... sigh... One good EMP blast and 1/2, no, 3/4, naa 90% of the World's population will be useless cause their 'smart' devices won't work....
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fixer1958
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 6:49am |
One good EMP blast and 1/2, no, 3/4, naa 90% of the World's population will be useless cause their 'smart' devices won't work....
I would like to see that happen, if not for entertainment reasons only. Working with some middle 20's dumbasses that can't walk 75' to the bathroom to take a 30 min crap without having there head buried in there phone.
I know I would be alright. Back the the original discussion.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 3:14pm |
in the late 60s and early 70s I drove semi and delivered all over Chicago only had a paper map from AAA to get around, load in Ohio and head west be there in the morning. Run all over the United States with nothing but a paper map.
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Ray54
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 3:56pm |
 Since current humans don't know if they are a F or M how could they know N, S, E, or W. 
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 4:29pm |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 4:44pm |
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X2 !!!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Walker
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 5:08pm |
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They crossed a potato peeler with a crude computer, called it a computater.
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BrianC
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Posted: 01 Nov 2021 at 5:59pm |
Interesting because of what I was doing on Sunday.
My Sunday Funday task was to use my new Bosh automatic optical level (GOL32) to check a 300x120 field for level. An automatic level has mirrors or prisms that compensate for slightly out of level set up. You just need to get the tool manually level enough so that the compensator device doesn't run out of travel. I am a bit of a klutz-tripping over the tripod, problems focusing and finding the stick. Hey, the sun got in my eyes. From set up #1 in one corner, 1 sighted in 4 corner posts, made marks on each post to the cross hairs. I used a yardstick clamped to the post, noted the number, walked over and made the mark.
Then I moved to the center of the field for set up #2. I repeated the process, 4 more marks. If the level is good, then the distance between #1 marks and #2 marks should be identical. I got 14.25 to 14.75. So 1/2" variance. I guess that is ok to check level of a garden plot. So all that was just to confirm the level wasn't broken and get ready to take the contour measurements. Then using the 8ft grade stick I checked 21 points. Did it myself with grade stick clamped to a saw horse. Now I know the field is 23" out of flat. Slopes down going south. This corresponds to puddles when it rains hard. Google Earth showed the same direction of slope. They only give 1ft resolution readings.
That was a fairly nerdy activity, the kind of thing I enjoy because it is interesting. Something my father would have done with the kids, just so we would see the process.
Then I got to wrenching on the tractor, replaced the canister type oil filter head for a spin on type. Worked out well.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 5:04am |
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Ray54
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 11:19am |
Brian you have a expensive hobby unless your using that equipment in your work to. Might be worse than old tractors.
Amazing how well the old timers did in surviving the west with the mountains and the brush.
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BrianC
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 3:20pm |
Ray, It was about $290, I had a $20 coupon applied. Amazon. A kit, with tripod, grade stick, level and case for the level head. Not used for work. I guess I collect tools.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 4:13pm |
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About 15 years ago i bought an old David White Transit off e-bay for a few bucks.. It was probably 40 years old then !.. Dont have no lights or lazers, but i use it a couple times per year on various things... built a couple barns / sheds with it... but mostly checking grade for level , water runoff, etc.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 5:43pm |
 steve(ill) wrote:
The surveyed from the east coast most of the way to California 200 years ago.. Those markers are still in place today and very accurate... How do you go 1000 miles west and be off a foot when you get there... WITHOUT a computer or GPS !! |
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 5:46pm |
Thank you for the link Les , thank goodness some of us can read a post  !!
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DiyDave
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 5:56pm |
A good surveyor can still run a line, whether it goes up hill down hill, or through hill...
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 6:02pm |
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GEES... what an DOLT.... There was a hill there and the surveyor was standing in front of it... Easy to DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE from him to the hill and FOLLOW THRU... And they survey OVER THE MOUNTAINS or AROUND to the other side... Same thing on the other side... If you have NEVER surveyed or dont understand the concept, then of course YOU DONT GET IT.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 6:03pm |
DiyDave wrote:
A good surveyor can still run a line, whether it goes up hill down hill, or through hill... |
How did they get a "line" through a mountain ?? I wished the show went into a little more detail the other night  .
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 6:05pm |
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I can survey AROUND a house and end up at the point i started !!! Thats how they do it.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 6:43am |
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Kansas99
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 7:19am |
Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 8:38am |
I sometimes wonder how the guy gets up in the morning and makes it to work !! 
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 9:26am |
Kansas99 wrote:
Hey guys, if I center punch a hole and drill 4 inches to the side is my hole in the right spot?
God lord Freed, my guess would be they survey a line over the mountain and luckily there was more than one transit in the world back then, so they set a transit on each side and someone looked through it to make sure the center of the tunnel was on the line.
What if the tunnel had a curve in it ?
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