1971 Fiat Allis 11b Rollers
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75560
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Topic: 1971 Fiat Allis 11b Rollers
Posted By: rafterw
Subject: 1971 Fiat Allis 11b Rollers
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 9:56pm
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I have a 1971 Fiat Allis 11B. Very strong old dozer. My undercarriage is shot. I have been told I can use Cat D5B rails and track. There is only 0.008 difference in pitch. My problem is that the Cat d5B bottom rollers will not match up to bolt on. I am looking for 12 bottom rollers that will work, any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Replies:
Posted By: Andrew_D
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 10:01pm
Couple of threads on here I have bookmarked:
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68153&KW=&title=coke-cat-bottom-allis-top" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68153
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68890&KW=&title=cat-bottom-allis-top" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68890
Andrew
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:29am
I could probably find you 12 rollers, used or new, and new chain. (Or used chain- all OEM) No need to modify to D5 yet, but it will work.
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:10pm
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That sounds great Lazyts but I have a place that I can buy two new D5 track
group for $3800US. Probably cannot get two whole new Fiat Allis 11B track groups for that can you? What kind of price for 12 new rollers and what kind
of price for 12 used rollers? I have been told that the D5 Rails will
run on the existing rollers. The company that is selling me the D5 Tracks said they can manufacture me new rollers if I send them drawings with dimensions. Thanks for your help
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:28pm
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Heck no, you can't get a set of track groups for that price- sounds awful cheap- would cost you that much for a set of chains only for HD11, but good Italian stuff, not Chinese. D5 rail will run on 11 rollers, D5 chain being slightly less pitch and not as beefy as the Allis rails. Will need adapter ring to change to D5 segments- I think I posted part number on a previous post, maybe under 7G track? In a perfect world, new rails should run on new rollers, new rollers are $325, used run between $100 and $275 depending on condition. What size of track shoe on the D5 groups? Is this an every day price or old stock? I've priced D5 groups at $7-8000, well over $10K for Berco. At $3800 you can't go wrong- are we talking SALT, sealed, or dry?
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:38pm
Well they are from China, I know that the quality is not as good but for what I use the old dozer for it should be fine and that price is hard to beat with 2000 Hr Warranty. I can get dry tracks for $3800 and Lubricated track for $4100 landed here. The company told me that if I could give them roller mounting dimensions they could change their machining on d5 rollers to make the fit the fiat allis 11b. I can buy the rollers new for $132 each. I have found some rollers in GA at salvage that are suppose to be about 60 to 70 % for $125. Will my segments not work? There is only 0.009 difference and there is some wear on them but for the most part they are in great shape. I was told that the D5 chain would run on them.
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:39pm
20" Shoes and they are new. They will build them 40 link just like the 11b for that price
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 10:13am
You're right- you can't beat the price. That is why the Italian manufacturers are getting out the the small tractor business- they just can't compete- labor costs are just too high. The D5 chain should run on the 11-B sprocket if you're sprockets are worn a bit. It won't be as good as the D5 sprocket, though- the D5 bushing is quite a bit smaller, so the wear will be increased on the outer surface of the bushing. I'd be curious to know how it turns out- I've been over the whole idea of D5 chain on an 11 myself. I know of guys using D5 rollers on 11s for sure, with an adapter plate (some guys weld a tapped block on the track frame to shim up the D5 roller and bolt it on- I'd rather bolt something on myself), and I've seen a few 11-Bs with D5/750 carrier rollers. (750 JD uses same track as D5, with 40 links just like an HD11.
Bottom line, at those prices, I'd try it, but I'd probably do the segments as well. I've seen lots of track ruined from external P&B wear, when there was still life in it pitch wise, from bad sprockets and guys rattling around in reverse. The temptation is there to walk a tractor in high reverse because of the higher speed, but you will pay for it in undercarriage wear.
My 2 cents... sometimes you have to sort through a few opinions to get the right answer.
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 12:52pm
Oh ok, I did not know the JD 750 was the same as D5. I had heard that D6 and JD 850 would interchange. I am gonna try to find out a price and get the drawings for the JD 750 that may be the route to go. They have them stocked and not have to wait 30 days to get them. What is the standard size shoe on JD 750? I know my 11b has 22" and the D5 that I have been looking at has 20" I can stand a 2" loss but I would not want to go more than that.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 5:53pm
Who quoted the prices, I am curious as to rails/shoes for my 7G which is also in the same pitch as a 11B (7.0).
I have found by wear dimensions the 6.906 rails are exact match at 50% wear but the rail width and bushings are smaller, found a size chart at dracoequipment but they would never answer as to availability for special orders as a 37 link chain for me with 15" shoes. The JD750 came with varying styles of pitches. My old girl has spoke sprockets and would require massive mods to make the chain work, thought about the D5 chain and shoes from a 953 a few times. Currently have a 7G donor with good rails, piddling poor shoes.
http://dracoequipment.com/Parts%20Links%20and%20Pages/All_Cat_107A.pdf
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 7:25pm
JD 750, 750B, 655, 655B all the same as Cat D5, D5B. 750C is longer pitch, newer D5 models are different also. 20" shoes would be pretty standard, I would think. D5 rails would be more similar to old HD11 style (and 7G) than newer HD11 and 11-B tractors with the heavier track.
When considering shoe width, keep in mind that the chain will wear faster with wider shoes. Also, you will get better traction with a narrower shoe in some conditions (when working in clays, or soils that compact well) or a wider shoe (in sand). Was told local R.M. (county) here had a 16B with 28" shoes, and couldn't fill their pull scraper with it, until they changed out to 24"- then it would pull like crazy. (stripping gravel pits) The theory is that you are working on the principle of shear force- what it takes to shear off the ground under the track to the depth of the grouser.
I really like the 11-B tractors, would have liked to have seen the next series of HD11 and HD16 from Allis Chalmers. I think when you look at the 21C you can see where they were headed- console controls, isolated cab, unitized main frame/ belly pan etc. Water under the bridge now...
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 7:52pm
Know what you mean and how you feel, my old 7G works fair when it works but on its worst day seems easier to work for me than a 755 Deere, just can't get used to a hydro unit, lots of squealing and hydraulic complaining. Buddy has a 555G, can't stand the feel of the controls or the operation as it is a direct drive on a clutch with a converter like a shuttle.
Have had several guys try to convince me to a 555G Deere, I wish Allis had kept the lines running too so I could show them a real good working machine.
I am taking coke's advice, sticking with re-rod for now as to track grousers, I am a cheapskate at heart even as I do get price bids for repair parts. Can't quite justify $1000 for grouser bars and still have to buy weld rod and find time to set them properly. Thinking I may keep the tracks I have from the donor intact, replace the oddball few shoes that were modified as replacements and add 3/4 or 1" rebar to the other end of the remaining shoes to balance to the existing grousers.
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 9:39pm
Lazyts are the JD 750 rails lighter than D5, bushing size and all that jazz? I am thinking that someone has done some mods on the track frame. I measured the bolt patterns and they were the same dimensions as the D5 drawings they had sent me.
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 9:42pm
DMiller I am talking with two different companies in China. There are tons of them over there. Just google and you will come up with more than you can imagine. EB Parts and K&H Parts are two that I have been talking with.
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 10:03pm
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Rafterw- JD 750 rails are exactly the same as D5, totally interchangeable.
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 12:07am
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D5 rails are engineered for a 24000 pound tractor to sit on, not a 33000 pound tractor like 11 series B. The D5 track is a good conversion for the much lighter dry steer HD11 tractors though
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 12:31pm
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Mac is right- D5 rails would be a good conversion for a 7G size machine, and I think Merv mentioned retrofitting dry steer HD11s on another thread. Might be worth checking on HD11E rollers with the Chinese company. Most of the new rollers I've seen lately have been Chinese. Most use a variation of the Berco part number AC1839. (Carrier roller AC1537)
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Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 5:07pm
Rafter; the pitch difference is 6.91 vs 7.00, is 090 difference not 009.
So you will have to have matching sprockets.
D5B operating weight with ROPS and 5S blade is 28000lb, and with a winch would be easily 30000lb. Is abit light for a 11B with a lot more hp. But sometimes is not much other choice. Have only heard of dry backend 11s being converted, never a wet one. In comparison later D5H/M has 7.5 pitch and D6D has 8.00 chain.
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 9:58pm
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I'd be curious to see one done.
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 10:08pm
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The weight I gave for 11 series B does not include all attachments. Which ever way you look at it, there is a mighty big difference in both weight and power between an 11 series B, and the tractors that the D5 chain were originally engineered for. If not, Caterpillar would have used the same track on D6C and D6D which are very close in weight to 11 series B and wet steer HD11
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:29pm
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Yes, and Allis would have never re-engineered the HD11 chain.
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:31pm
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It isn't ideal, but it would probably work, with the hours most of these old tractors get these days. HD6Merv- have you had any experience with Chinese track chain? (or anyone else?)
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Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:17pm
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Maybe those Chinese chains are being made out of the hundred or so old AC's being melted down this week.
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 9:16pm
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Probably melting down good used undercarriage!
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 9:36pm
Yep HD6 Merv I seen that after the fact. It is 3.6" over 40 links of track. I still think it should work out. I know the right thing to do would be to replace segs, but I know a fellow not too far from me that swears they have made the conversion with the original segments on the series B. I am thinking it could work but wont know until I try it. I do work my old dozer but not a whole bunch.This old machine has no winch or rippers. It should weigh 33000 or so maybe 35000
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Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 1:48am
Trev don,t know anything about Chinese track gear. But have seen and heard only bad things about chinese engine and final drive componets. Junk in both cases. The Korean undercarriage is supposed to be as good as the Italians stuff and nothing wrong with there track gear.
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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Posted By: ac_sd
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 2:52pm
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I have some new Single Flange rollers off an HD-11AG that should work on an HD-11 Series B. Also have a good set of tracks with good rail height, decent pads and turned pins and bushings. Also Idlers off the same machine. You wouldn't be able to use the new sprocket rims I have as Yours has segmented sprockets. Let me know if interested in any of that!!!
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 5:04pm
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My brother once put new Chinese tracks on a Komatsu trackhoe. Then every time the machine worked on rock, it broke track pins. Just broke pin after pin. Got so bad he set up a truck just for the track repairs with equipment for thermic lancing, driving, and replacing segments and pins. Was a hard and expensive lesson to learn not to ever buy Chinese junk again
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Posted By: rafterw
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 9:45pm
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ac_sd please private message me or email me at rafterw@waywireless.com I would like to know what you are thinking price wise on tracks and rollers. Also if you have slack adjusters. Thanks
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Posted By: hessfarm
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 2:46pm
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Do you know where to get top or bottom rollers for Fiat Allis 11B? New, used or rebuilt.
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Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 8:08pm
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General Gear in Id ,Associated Tractor,or FP Smith in Calif may have something or know other places that could have them. They all deal in after market parts as well as parting some.
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Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 8:29pm
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Fresno Tractor would most likely have used ones, in the east Crane and Tractor in Ohio for used or Boyd and Sons in Indiana for new ones. Berco part number AC1839 (Allis 70680950) for bottom, AC1537 for top. I bought some used last year from Kansas Tractor Parts, Great Bend KS. You can also search these part numbers on MachineryTrader under Dismantled Machines- that has been a very useful page for me in the past.
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Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 11:25pm
40 plus years ago a friend took me on a tour of the Cat large tractor assembly plant in Peoria. He pointed out some track pieces being made on one production line, said they where for JD.
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
Allis Express participant
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Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 2:34am
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I've no idea what the supply situation in US is but the case hardened old diesel mechanic I used pointed me away from Berco and to ITM. So far no regrets.
http://www.group-itm.com/en/products/undercarriage-components/track-chains" rel="nofollow - http://www.group-itm.com/en/products/undercarriage-components/track-chains
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2019 at 9:03pm
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Looks like good stuff Ian
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Posted By: hessfarm
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2019 at 10:03pm
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I didn't find anyone with new Berco even though some were showing on Machinery Trader. I did find some used at Thill Tractor in Wisconsin. Berco dealers I talked to didn't indicate they could get new ones.
Thank you, Richard
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 6:22am
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I spoke to a Berco and ITM supplier some three or four years ago, they stated then they could get the rails and rollers from overseas just had to order a complete inventory of them, told me they would NOT. Seems the aspect to force obsolescence is very high. Still loads of HD11Bs 7Gs & Gbs , enough IH Drott Dresser units still wearing 7.0 pitch they could afford to invest in inventory as for all the searching people would pay the price to keep their still good and functional machines working. Some Fiat FL units used a Metric based 7.0 or really close to it, even they are not imported.
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 5:03pm
Our track shop down here still imports the ITM or Berco rollers, sprocket segments, sprocket rings, pins and bushings, and some rails for HD6 and wet steer HD11. Considering the very small market in this corner of the world compared with the market where you all are, it doesn't seem right that someone is not making the effort to import them up there. They are obviously still being manufactured.
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Posted By: Steve allis dozer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2019 at 2:54am
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Hi Mactractor do you have an approximate price for rollers and pins and bushes for HD11'? thanks steve
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Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2019 at 4:47am
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Steve
Have a look at this crew re ITM
https://titanaust.com.au/undercarriage/" rel="nofollow - https://titanaust.com.au/undercarriage/
The crew I dealt with (early 2000's) in Qld was "Hitachi something" and IIRC there was a name change later
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2019 at 5:58am
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Fiat moved from Allis to Hitachi names while continuing the Fiat Allis dozer/Loader lines FL and FD Series machines retained the Fiat Allis appearance just changed Branding and colors. IIRC the FL10 had 7.0 rails series became the FL145? and as such carried a MM Rail close in dimension to 7.484/7.5, the FL14 used 7.484 rails but uncertain what series that became FL175? They also converted to Cummins Case engines. If the rails are still in the US for Fiathitachi and segments are still there could they be installed on the earlier machines?
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Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2019 at 4:40am
Steve, I will PM you when I can get some prices. HD6 Merv has been to that track shop more recently than my last visit. He may have some idea on recent prices.
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