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The ones Allis Chalmers did not build

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6275
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 12:34am
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Topic: The ones Allis Chalmers did not build
Posted By: Claus
Subject: The ones Allis Chalmers did not build
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 6:57am
What do you wish AC would have built?  I wish they would have built a larger tractor than the WD45, the 45 was a great tractor but I wish they would have built something larger like the Molines of that time.  I like to see the antique tractor pulls but when you see a Case 900, Cockshutt 50 or a 80 Deere, there is nothing orange to compete with them.  Also wish the 6095 (6080 with 301 turbo) would have made it into production, I bet that would have been a real nice tractor.
 
How about a large round baler for the hay guys.  What else?



Replies:
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 7:05am
a 6095 should be a bolt together deal. except sheet metal of course. I am suprised we havent seen one pop up on here! there are alot of innovative people on this forum. remember the WD95 was it? Alot of the tractors that never made it past the planning stage could be "built" by some of these craftsmen! make sure you post lots of pics for us to enjoy. Ed.

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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: gary ny
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 8:29am
I would have like to see the little 4 wheel drive that used the ce motor built . I saw a Massey Harris  4 wheel drive at the goto in canada last and though how great it would be to have one of those little allis 4 wheel drives up here


Posted By: omahagreg
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 9:43am
Norm Swinford talks of a large round baler they were working on, but abandoned when the ground drive did not work.  I wonder why a PTO drive was not tried-maybe it was considered too innovative?

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Greg Kroeker
1950 WD with wide front and Freeman trip loader


Posted By: Claus
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 9:48am
Actually they were looking at putting their name on someone else's junk machine, bad idea X2!


Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 10:25am
I wish they wouldn't have bailed out of the hay equipment business in the mid 70's. I have an old 904 mower conditioner from the early 70's?? that I still use, but parts are hard to come by.

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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2



Posted By: gary ny
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 12:08pm
I remember new holland had an early big round baler that didn t tie it it just raped it into a very loose bale.the farmer I was working for was all excited about it when he borrowed it and baled a 20 acre field with it.we took the loader down to pick them up and they just fell apart.He was fit to be tied then it started raining and it rained for 4 days straight ,I had laught my butt off because I thought it was not a good idea to bale it all like that but he told me to mind my own business this is the the new way lol.when the hay piles finally dried out they made real nice burn piles all over the field .But i told him the grass where we burned is coming in nice and thick so at least you will get some decent second cutting out of it lol.  


Posted By: Rfdeere
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 12:25pm
I wish they would have built Farm Tractors after 1985.

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Randy Freshour,Member Indiana AC Partners,
http://www.rumelyallis.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.rumelyallis.com


Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 12:27pm
Allis was really innovative in implements.  They had the first production round baler, a front unloading manure spreader, first no-till corn planter, arguably the best pull type combine, an excellent design in the silent weed killer, I think the first min-till disc-chise, an excellent mon-frame plow with hydraulic reset, etc.  I think it would've been nice if AC just improved those.  There are tons of front unloading manure spreaders now, big round balers are everywhere, the corn planter improved and is still one of the best, the silent weed killer could've been beefed up and had more trash clearance put in it, etc.  I wish they would've improved/made those things.

From a tractor perspective when AC ended they didn't make a tractor smaller than 70 hp in house.  And, the transmission and FWA was not made by them in the 60-60/70/80 models.  In the larger 8000's they were going to outsource the engines.  At the time was there a better tractor in the 100+ hp class than the 8000's?  I don't think so.  Look at todays tractors.  They have some new features like CVT and electronic controls but you take that out and the 8000's still compare favorably.  They could've improved the FWA turning radius and made a smaller frame for the 100-120 hp tractors and gotten bigger on the other end.  


Posted By: dairyfarmer (soIL)
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 2:19pm
of the other colors of the era none had a fwa setup like the 8000 series did but nad most didnt have powershift but the pwershift is doggie in these compared to a power director in my opininon it is hard to say where they would have went if they did things different
dairyfarmer
 
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Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 3:00pm
I wish they would have built the B with the WC engine in it, (the opposite of the RC). I sure would like to see how that matched up in some of the pulls. I wonder if they were able to get the gearing just right on that? I also would have liked to see the 4WD that used the CE engine, and something that was on the size scale between the B/C and the WD-45, and something larger then the WD-45 in the same time period. 


Posted By: Brian Ahart
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 7:42pm

While we're dreaming, how about a:

* D10/12 Series III Diesel using the D175 engine

* WD55 with the G230 or 262 and experimental five (or was it six) speed transmission that never made it into production (mentioned in Norm's book)

* D15 Series III with the D17 IV hydraulic system



-------------
A-C Weight ID reference and other goodies at http://www.brianahart.net" rel="nofollow - brianahart.net


Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 8:27pm
Brian;  You beat me to it.  D-15 Series III deisel with a D175 turbo.
Gary. I have all the parts to build a small A-C articulated FWD. (4W93) (1 of 0)

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Posted By: LloydCentWi
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 8:32pm
How about a 201 or 226 engine converted to diesel, with a turbo, for the WD,WD45s, D17s etc....< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">


Posted By: Shawn PA
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 8:59pm
a 200 with 426 turbo for all the pullers


Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 9:25pm
as good as 236/248 perkins engines are, I would like to put a 200cid 433I AC engine into a 170/175. then it would be a thoroughbred!

-------------
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: gary ny
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 9:52pm
Calvin When are you going to get started building it? I will volenteer to paint it for you just to drive it around for a few days lol,Lets get it done for the show in canadaua in 2013.


Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 10:24pm
D10/D12 would have been great with a power director....and a diesel option! Sometimes I think the bean counters brought AC down.

-------------
ALLIS EXPRESS!
This year:


Posted By: MI8050
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 10:56pm
Hows about actually putting the spring reset prototype plow they hade at least one of into production.  Or even a spring reset plow for that matter, I thought that prototype looked like a real modern setup from the photos.
 
An F4 or F5 Gleaner!


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 12:20am
InjpumpEd quote, "would like to put a 200cid 433I AC engine into a 170/175."
 Yes! that would be nice.
  D19 Diesel came with a turboed 262, to drop the 433I into it. Would have gone from 67 pto to app. 83HP.
 But to keep pace with what they had back in those years, the 4DI344 engine would be another choice.  would have had to beef the trans and rr ends up.
 On another thought, they were already running 3400 engine (D21) and I would bet the 2500 or 2800 engines were available to had dropped them in. 

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Posted By: TerryMN
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 4:04pm
8095 should have been built
6095 should have been built
7000 series should have had the prototype cab put on they were testing
170/180/190 with Front wheel assist
220 four wheel drive tractor that white built for Allis.
The model D
The model F
The model H-1
 
 


Posted By: archangel_cpj
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 5:48pm
I would have been curious to see what the next series would look like probably call it a 900 or some dang thing like that but I cant believe that the 426 engine would have made it past the 8000 series the competition was too great there had to be something there to compete with the larger JD motors etc out there...  I wonder if the 426 would have been the last in house engine AC ever build would they have contracted them out...  I really think had AC been able to make it 3 more years and get into the late 80s and 90s they would have had some sweet stufff...

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Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 8:07pm
Yes Terry! how could I forget. The A4T1600/AC 4WD. I would also like to build one of those! Put an intercooled 426 in an A4T, put 220 hood/grill/ sheet metal. maybe name it Two-Sixty? oh well, just dreamin anyway! You have to admit it'd be cool as heck! Even leaving the MM585, but turbo'd, would even work. The 440's just didn't have the pizazz they should have. The prototype in Norms book with a 3160 CAT would have been a little better than the ole 555 though.

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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 8:22pm
A "G" with the 125 engine and live hyralics.  Considering they sold over 29,000 of the G's I bet there would have been a lot more demand if there was a more powerful version

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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
Allis Express participant


Posted By: JayD-17(NY)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 9:05pm
I always thought those experimental Models D and F were intriguing. The F looked like a father too the d-17, but if it had been produced, most certainly the legendary WD45 never would have. Makes you wonder "What If". Would have been neat if they could have come out with the 45 a few years earlier, then the F , then the d17; but it seems like the country was just crawling out of the depression and then the war came and put a damper on alot of new ideas and innovations.


Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 7:45am
I wish Allis had developed or teamed up to launch a nice small tractor line and equipment  like the Yanmar or Kubota  in the 70s  (and stuck with it for the long haul).   Seems like that was the beginning of the slide for many US companies. 
I owned a Kubota 6100 for a while that was really too small but built like a tank.   Nice diesel that started easily, available front wheel assist, heavy cast iron construction, good dealer support, three point, three speed PTO, diff lock.   I don't think Deere dealers can complain about the  Yanmar deal.
Hindsight is 20/20.  Probably was hard to envision that such a market would evolve for small farms, hobby farms, light construction and landscaping use.   Eventually I think that is why AGCO will just reduce to MF in the US and some short lines.


Posted By: Scott(SC)
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 7:55am
I think a WF with live power, diesel and hydraulics would be nice to have. To combine the looks and newer options would be great.


Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 8:16am
I would like to have seen the experimental WD with the 5 speed trans. become a reality and then carried over to the WD-45s and D-17s. Pg. 78 in Norm Swinford's book. (the Bible)


Posted By: Dutchboy Johan
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 7:14am
My wish list would be this.
 
WD45 with 34" rear wheels and a 5 gear tranny,
The conceptional CA30 tractor.
From D17 to above series, all with bigger tires, D17 with 34" and a D19 with 38" as standard.
A D21 with a V8, same as IH did with the 14 and 1566 to bring them up to a 1468 and 1568.
The 190, 200, 210 and 220 tractors with a powershift transmission like the JD 4020.
And off course the 8095 would be a great tractor, but only when it has a AC engine and not the Komatsu.
 


-------------
---> Better by Design <---

Johan Straver, Almkerk/ Netherlands

Allis-Chalmers 190XT Ser.III #26829XTD


Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 11:33am
A 5 or 6 speed tranny in the WC-WD45 tractors with a decent road gear like the Farmalls had from 1939 on. It would have been nice back in the day & would make these nicer caravan tractors today! Kip

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HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!!


Posted By: ajl
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 9:29pm
I wonder why Allis did not develop a version of the engine they used in the N7/R7 for the higher hp tractors?  As far as I can tell they only used it in the Combine.


Posted By: ta27823
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 9:55pm
I was told the proto 7080 had that engine but the trans and rear didnt handle the low speed high tourque that engine produced.  So up went the rps on the 426 and the rest is history.  This may not be totaly correct but its what I was told.


Posted By: EPALLIS
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 11:49pm
A D-15 Series III?!  You must be an X-Allis-Chalmers employee.  That's the best idea I've heard in 20 years.  I'll submit that to Crain at AGCO and let you know what I hear back!!!!!!!!!!!  LOL!


Posted By: Dave King
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 6:25pm
They should never have farmed out building tractors.  The 440  and the 160 should have been West Allis tractors.  I never figured out why they brought in a motor to put in the 175 and then brought in a tractor to put around the 433.  AC was the benchmark for little tractors with the B and C and then gave up on that segment. As far as what was never built, the 8095 should have come out with the rest of the line, same with the 6095 and a 6050 and a powershift for the 6000 series.  A 4w350 and a 4w400 would have been nice.  


Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 6:48pm
I'm sure a lot of it was because of Union labor.  Look how little is made in the USA right now......I know Norm talks about them trying to be competitive quite a bit during the 60's. Also a couple of bad products cost AC a lot of repair money and reputation during this time, so they had to bring their prices way down to bring in new customers.

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ALLIS EXPRESS!
This year:


Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 6:55pm
Back in 87 when I was chairman of the International Silo Association, we were a part of FIEI (Farm and Industrial Equipment Institute). When we met in Chicago (Wrigley building), I met a former A-C enineering exective who was working at FIEI. He said that A-C always had a high cost transmission plant and Case up the road in Racine had a very modern an efficient transmission plant. He was aways trying to get A-C to outsource the 6000 series transmission from Case but instead they inported a Renault.


Posted By: MI8050
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 7:52pm
From the clutch housing back on the 6000's they were Fiat.  The 160 was a Renault though, right?


Posted By: LloydCentWi
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 8:44am
Maybe if they had adopted the 3pt hitch, or paid rights fees if necessary, when the WD came out in 1948 and skipped the snap coupler phase. I think the G with a B/C/CA engine would've been the way to go. And of course, more gears or a hi-lo, in the all the tractors, B,C,CA,WC,WD,WD45 etc... < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">


Posted By: Austin(WI)
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 9:28am
I just wish they were still making stuff....

-------------
"Better By Design"


Posted By: Tdavison
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 9:53am
    I am a "Bean Counter".  Don't blame the bean counters.  It nice to build tractors, but you have to make a profit while doing it.  Bean counters are  needed to keep the sales and production people realistic in their ideas.  Don't get me wrong,  I am an AC lover and grew up driving a Model C  (The best little tractor ever built).  I wish that Agco would remain an AC company, but market factors may make that impossible.  I don't believe the gentlemen from Germany would eliminate a line if he thought it could make money for the company.  AC had many problems, and design Or lack of, casused most of their problems.


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Tdavison Tdavison wrote:

   AC had many problems, and design Or lack of, casused most of their problems.

I disagree with that statement.

I think the 6000 series referred to earlier is the 6040 which was a retinned 160.

I think I should search for a 433T for my D19 gas. It's getting too expensive to run.


-------------
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: Spud
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 1:46pm
I think AC was getting it together at the very end.  The 6000 and 8000 series would stand toe to toe with any competitor.  Unfortunately a lot of equipment from before that did not have a good reputation.  Continual changing of suppliers for small tractors probably didn't help either.


Posted By: TedBuiskerN.IL.
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 2:17pm
I would like to say i wish they made a D-18 to make the numbering system complete but they didn't. Oh wait yeah they did! LOL I have the original Allis-Chalmers blue prints right from the factory for it. I was working for an old implement dealership here about 5 years ago and a long time customer invited me out to the farm to show me his "old" allis. Sure enough in the corner of the barn sits a D-18. Weird looking duck. He never was quite clear on how he got it, but he said it has been sitting there about 35-40 years under the old army tarp. He is the one who gave me the blueprints. He made it sound as if his family farm was part of the "far west" proving grounds for allis. I thought it was the only one ever made, until the local allis dealership asked me if i had ever heard of one. They said an ol boy from down south called looking for a part, they had on the dealer network. According to that ol boy they made 4 of them. He uses his on a regular basis, and i guess if i ever win the lottery i will remake one from these blueprints. LOL I know that the tractor still sits in the barn and that the gentleman is still alive. I offered to purchase the tractor when he showed it to me, and he just said "good things come to those who wiat" So maybe i will go up with the trailer some day and bring it home. If any one would ever like to see the blueprints feel free to zap me an email and i will bring them to a show. mailto:m.pehl@hotmail.com - m.pehl@hotmail.com I have been asked once if I would sell the prints and i have no idea what they would be worth. It would be interesting to get some ideas, considering i have them in my apartment. I have renters insurance but the $30K coverage i have i don't think would begin to cover the value of the prints. Let me know what you guys think they may be worth. I would like to get them insured properly.
 
Thanks, Matt Pehl Davis, Il


-------------
Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.


Posted By: Matt (NEIA)
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 2:27pm
different styling on the 7000 series for me

-------------
1955 WD-45 with factory PS


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 10:19am
hey guys a-c built this tractor and im trying to find it . it was a D@! front wheel assist . so it was four wheel drive with hydrostat. they made 10   9 were convered back to two wheel drive . i want it for my collection
i have a wd45,two D10s3, 190xt,5040,7030,ca,


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 10:24am
i would never sell those blue prints i have a book on every ac built and the ones that wasnt ill look in it.


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 10:32am
the d18 was about the same as the d17.D262 motor same motor as the D17.the D19 is the D18 but with a diesel and turbo.there was a production of d18 but nobody bought them.


Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 10:42am
Originally posted by TedBuiskerN.IL. TedBuiskerN.IL. wrote:

I would like to say i wish they made a D-18 to make the numbering system complete but they didn't. Oh wait yeah they did! LOL I have the original Allis-Chalmers blue prints right from the factory for it. I was working for an old implement dealership here about 5 years ago and a long time customer invited me out to the farm to show me his "old" allis. Sure enough in the corner of the barn sits a D-18. Weird looking duck. He never was quite clear on how he got it, but he said it has been sitting there about 35-40 years under the old army tarp. He is the one who gave me the blueprints. He made it sound as if his family farm was part of the "far west" proving grounds for allis. I thought it was the only one ever made, until the local allis dealership asked me if i had ever heard of one. They said an ol boy from down south called looking for a part, they had on the dealer network. According to that ol boy they made 4 of them. He uses his on a regular basis, and i guess if i ever win the lottery i will remake one from these blueprints. LOL I know that the tractor still sits in the barn and that the gentleman is still alive. I offered to purchase the tractor when he showed it to me, and he just said "good things come to those who wiat" So maybe i will go up with the trailer some day and bring it home. If any one would ever like to see the blueprints feel free to zap me an email and i will bring them to a show. mailto:m.pehl@hotmail.com - m.pehl@hotmail.com I have been asked once if I would sell the prints and i have no idea what they would be worth. It would be interesting to get some ideas, considering i have them in my apartment. I have renters insurance but the $30K coverage i have i don't think would begin to cover the value of the prints. Let me know what you guys think they may be worth. I would like to get them insured properly.
 
Thanks, Matt Pehl Davis, Il
Neat!  Any chance you would be willing to take some pics, or scan (to big?) of the blueprints so we could see??  Might help set a value?   What is different on the D18?  Just a bigger engine, or what?


-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 11:25am
Originally posted by injpumpEd injpumpEd wrote:

as good as 236/248 perkins engines are, I would like to put a 200cid 433I AC engine into a 170/175. then it would be a thoroughbred!

I've dreamt about that many times. One day I will give it a try.


-------------
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 11:30am
Originally posted by rooster rooster wrote:

the d18 was about the same as the d17.D262 motor same motor as the D17.the D19 is the D18 but with a diesel and turbo.there was a production of d18 but nobody bought them.

They only built a prototype or 2 of the D18. They were never for sale.


Man, Where did this old thread come from? I thought I was commenting on something new. 


-------------
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 11:36am
briggs and stratton bought the rights to ac they still make ac lawnmowers


Posted By: Pat the Plumber CIL
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 1:52pm
175 Narrow front w snap coupler
Snap couplers on all 100 series tractors.Then my grandfather and father could not have used that as an excuse as to not buy a new tractor in early 70's.Not like they would have anyway.Dad always said they would buy a new one if it would hook up to all our snap coupler equipt.

-------------
You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails

1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:02pm
no they made more than that


Posted By: Russ-neia
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:14pm
Are we all talking about what would be a "true" D-18 or just the D-17 cotton-picker tractors?

-------------
The innovators offer what others will imitate.


Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:25pm
D18 was a D19 rear end (straight axle) with a 262 naturally aspirated diesel, right?  Not a D17 rear end (drop axles) with a D19 262 gas or 262 TD.

Hurst


-------------
1979 Allis Chalmers 7000
5800 Hours


Posted By: gleaner1
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 4:00pm
AC did have tractors with larger displacement than the 426,    8550, and 4W-305 they  had the 731 cu in from the N7 but with twin turbos.  this was a fantastic motor, hard on fuel but lasted a lot longer than a 426,   they should have put a version of this in the N6,  Gleaners would be a lot more popular today if it wasn't for the black eye they got with all the early N6's sold.

My list
N6 with 731 cu in
4W-375 with an N14 and Twin Disc power shift
and finally KHD should have kept production of the 6 and 8000's series and just changed to the Deutz air cooled motors




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ALLIS CHALMERS "The color is orange"


Posted By: gleaner1
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 4:02pm
Lets hear more of the A4T-1600  WHITE/ALLIS,   
I know they were looking at them as a supplier for 4wd's, but did they actually make a proto?




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ALLIS CHALMERS "The color is orange"


Posted By: Dans 7080
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 4:18pm
Gleaner1 the N7 did not have the 731, It had the 516ci 685I. The 731 was the 6120T.


Posted By: gleaner1
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 4:30pm
Yes, thanks for correcting me,  we had to many engines over the years and I'm starting to forget which motors they had,  the 516 cu in was the one that should have been in the N6 and the 4W-220.



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ALLIS CHALMERS "The color is orange"


Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 5:29pm
I can understand the complaints of the outsourcing machinery, but some of the outsourced products were good machines.  The 160 is a decent and dependable tractor and were good sellers for some dealers that had a good small tractor business yet at that time.  For A-C to build an up-to-date transmission for the D15 would have been cost prohibitive.  I love my D15s but I understand where A-C was coming from there.

As far as the Perkins in the 170-175s, using the A-C four cylinder would have made sense, but that motor has been a very good reliable motor for those tractors and parts are CHEAP!  Several years ago I was overhauling my C, at the same time a customer came in and ordered an overhaul kit for his 175, when it came down to it the 175 parts were less than my C!!!  I tell ya, that hurt! lol

It would have been interesting to see A-C keep up with the hay and forage division, but that market was narrowing, I would have rather seen them buy out New Holland or Hesston to get a more competitive forage line.  The large round balers they messed with were Hawk Bilt balers and they were a joke!  I was always told they did not enter the large baler market because they were sued to max for Roto Baler mishaps.  They were evidently getting out of the forage line as well so that could have put a damper on the whole large baler idea too. 

Roto Balers had such a dark cloud over them that even when Deutz bought out A-C they would send any Roto Baler owner a kit including updated safety decals and an operators and safety manual.  I love Roto Balers and they are one of the best designed and most rugged machines built but, please, if you run one, keep your hands out of it while it is in operation!

One of the former salesman at the dealership where I work at always talked about going to a 6000 series sales meeting in West Allis.  He said they had a 15 speed powershift transmission designed for these tractors that was slated to come out.  This would have been ahead of its time as well. 

I just wish Deutz would have kept the color, factory and people around that made these great products.  They could have put their engine in them, thats the only thing they had worth a darn anyway!  They could have had a great product lineup and brought in their own products that A-C didnt have to fill the gaps such as their hay equipment.  I was always told you could tell the guys from Deutz,but you couldnt tell them much!  I wonder if Marty's last name isnt Deutz instead of Richenhaenblubbennnnnnnnn

lol
Jim




Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 9:12pm
A Gleaner conventional based on the M/L design that they were working on in the late 60's, with the 63 inch cylinder . They would have had to beef up the cylinder house, enclose the cylinder to keep dust/dirt out and minimize the vibration problem, add about a foot to the end of the sieves, and put the 516 engine on at about 200hp. They would have sold a ton of them in these parts in the 70's and 80's. Oh well.


Posted By: Reeseholler
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 10:30pm
I would have liked to see a higher hp CA without the torque tube. that would be interesting


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 1:17pm
i have a huge book from ac from 1914 to the present day of the ones built and the ones that werent.


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 1:19pm
my ca needs a valve job badyou can here it sucking. isnt it the same motor as a b.


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by rooster rooster wrote:

no they made more than that

If they did, and they may have, they were all prototypes. If what you are talking about is the cotton picker D17 with 262 that would be different but it's not a D18. From what I understand the D18 was a D19 prototype that had a lower hood line that made it look like the size of a D17 and the sales people thought it would be too hard to sell a souped up D17 with the added price. A souped D17 it was not cause it had the rear end of what was to become the D19. So they raised the hood line up to make it look bigger and justify, in the farmer's mind, the added cost. If the diesel D18 had a turbo I do not know but I'd guess they did. In the end I'm pretty darn sure non were ever sold unless you count what was sold as scrap.


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Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: Eric[IL]
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 2:40pm
A synchronized transmission in the standard transmission category.  I speed shift my 7060's power director when hauling wagons down the road.  Sometimes I find the gear and sometimes I don't. 


Posted By: rooster
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2010 at 5:53pm
my 7030 is like that


Posted By: BG1
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 4:35pm
I know this is a long shot since these posts are so old. I am wondering if you have any idea of what the value of a 6095 prototype might be. I have reason to believe I own one. My father was a proving grounds head engineer in SE Wisconsin for Allis.


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 5:12pm
Nice to see this info on your 6095, doubt theres much $$$$$ value as Allis isnt there for support and Agco doesnt know about that - if yours is a true 6095 it has to have an Allis 301,  


Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 7:53pm
welcome to the forum. Have any stories or info or anything allis to share with us


Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 8:26pm
Interesting old post, The 8000 and 6000 series were good tractors and with improvements could have been great tractors. Economics of the 80’s killed them, not many companies survived that bad era. Allis made good engines, transmissions not so much. Guess that’s why they brought Fiat in for 6000 series. A power shift trans in the 6000 series would have been sweet as well as hydraulic pto. Love our 6060 but those 2 things would have made it a great tractor.

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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD


Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by AC720Man AC720Man wrote:

Interesting old post, The 8000 and 6000 series were good tractors and with improvements could have been great tractors. Economics of the 80’s killed them, not many companies survived that bad era. Allis made good engines, transmissions not so much. Guess that’s why they brought Fiat in for 6000 series. A power shift trans in the 6000 series would have been sweet as well as hydraulic pto. Love our 6060 but those 2 things would have made it a great tractor.


The reason for using Fiat powertrains had nothing to do with transmission quality.  By using an existing powertrain, AC was able to save a ton of time and money rather than having to design, test and buy tooling to build their own new powertrain.  Right out of Norm's book.


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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080


Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 9:21pm
That is a true statement, however having a non synchronized transmission in previous models put AC behind. Farmers went elsewhere seeking better drivability and ranges in the field. Just saying, I wish Allis would have built their own synchronized transmission instead relying on a another foreign built one. American made.

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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD


Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 9:40pm
Wish they chopped 2 cylinders off the 426 instead of the 301.  Different gear layout on 6000 series.  4th and reverse intermediate is to slow for loader work 1st high and reverse too fast for loader work.   3rd remote on 6000 series if you have two tied up with loader your sol.   

The biggest head scratcher is no foot throttle on 8000 series.  


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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760


Posted By: EPALLIS
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 9:40pm
I keep dreaming about that D-15 Series III.  LOL!


Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2021 at 11:22pm
D series should have had true live hydraulics and IPTO from the start. Three point as well since Fergusons patent had expired by that time. I can't imagine an AG engineer working on a new line of tractors at that point in time, deciding they weren't necessary features to remain competitive. The pump would be easy with an extended frame and a front pump between the engine and the bolster. A double clutch like a Ford or any Japanese built compact tractor uses would have taken care of the IPTO. 


Posted By: Pat the Plumber CIL
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 8:48am
Love the old post with guys we never hear from. Wonder if Dairyfarmer(SoIl) is still around?

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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails

1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 1:04pm
Interesting responses,, 


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 7:50pm
the one where you sat on a platform,    instead of stradle every thing or with your feet out in front of you


Posted By: coggonobrien
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2021 at 3:08pm
the Dr. is in the middle of a concept he has been working on in his head for many decades. I'm sure he will be ready to post the functional prototype soon. His D17 XT headed to Mizzou last week.


Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 4:12pm
.

Old thread but I'll add a bit:

-They lost a lot of market share by not paying Ferguson for rights to use the three-point for the WD launch or even late years of the WC. It was well proven by Ferguson TE/TO and the Ford N-series by the WD. Trying to engineer around a patent wasted a whole crew of workers, lab time, marketing, and sales efforts plus left customers at risk for proprietary connections. Companies still stumble over this, thinking things like their unique phone charger connector will ensure market dominance when it's the common connector that makes ownership seamless. We had both a WD and a Ferguson TO35 on the farm when I was a kid and I only remember the WD doing sickle bar mower duty because it lacked the three point all the rest of our tractors had. I had the impression the mower was really hard to put on/off that tractor too. I did get to grind the bar teeth quite a few times but never drove the tractor (we had hills and a NF was more than enough dangerous).

-AC spent too much time trying to 'go toe to toe' with the competitor models in every market, advertising how they matched all the competitor tractors in all the markets. Had they focused on the tractor middle-hp-market, no lawn mowers and no tractors over 100hp, they would have been strong enough to continue. 

-Flowing artful curves of the 50s/60s machines gave way to the blocky 70s/80s styling that looks no where near as graceful. My father stopped buying Ford trucks for twenty years until they came out with better styling. It matters for tractors too.

-Large round PTO driven baler would have been a great product to launch.

Look at the production rates of the WC/D/45 and D-15/17/10/21 vs their later number series tractors that pushed for higher hp and ever higher prices and those tractor sales were abysmal. There were, and still are, many family farmers making a go of it, even with day jobs to cover the big bills, that would consider a workhorse tractor for a fair price.

The unhinged monetary expansion and resulting inflation during the 70s/80s made it impossible to continue for too many companies. That was outside of their control and just made making the decisions they executed against an unknowable outcome.

.


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 8:02pm
In the long run I think government policies had a lot to do with the demise of AC because AC had so many government contracts and was involved in so many industries that government sold America out on in order to bring in foreign products and also by destroying the economy.

BTW I wish Allis would have updated the conventional combines like installing a reverser and updating the cabs a few years earlier than the 2 series rotaries. But over all the Gleaners were still ahead of the competition through the late 80's ..... even the cabs.


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Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 8:04pm
Sounds like a lot of opinions stated as fact.


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

Sounds like a lot of opinions stated as fact.
touche Wink

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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: CORLEWFARM
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by jvin248 jvin248 wrote:

.

Old thread but I'll add a bit:

-They lost a lot of market share by not paying Ferguson for rights to use the three-point for the WD launch or even late years of the WC. It was well proven by Ferguson TE/TO and the Ford N-series by the WD. Trying to engineer around a patent wasted a whole crew of workers, lab time, marketing, and sales efforts plus left customers at risk for proprietary connections. Companies still stumble over this, thinking things like their unique phone charger connector will ensure market dominance when it's the common connector that makes ownership seamless. We had both a WD and a Ferguson TO35 on the farm when I was a kid and I only remember the WD doing sickle bar mower duty because it lacked the three point all the rest of our tractors had. I had the impression the mower was really hard to put on/off that tractor too. I did get to grind the bar teeth quite a few times but never drove the tractor (we had hills and a NF was more than enough dangerous).

-AC spent too much time trying to 'go toe to toe' with the competitor models in every market, advertising how they matched all the competitor tractors in all the markets. Had they focused on the tractor middle-hp-market, no lawn mowers and no tractors over 100hp, they would have been strong enough to continue. 

-Flowing artful curves of the 50s/60s machines gave way to the blocky 70s/80s styling that looks no where near as graceful. My father stopped buying Ford trucks for twenty years until they came out with better styling. It matters for tractors too.

-Large round PTO driven baler would have been a great product to launch.

Look at the production rates of the WC/D/45 and D-15/17/10/21 vs their later number series tractors that pushed for higher hp and ever higher prices and those tractor sales were abysmal. There were, and still are, many family farmers making a go of it, even with day jobs to cover the big bills, that would consider a workhorse tractor for a fair price.

The unhinged monetary expansion and resulting inflation during the 70s/80s made it impossible to continue for too many companies. That was outside of their control and just made making the decisions they executed against an unknowable outcome.



I farm full time ,row crpos and cattle and use a 100 series daily and 8⁰00 series during planting. I have other brands but they don't get used as much.


Posted By: tomstractorsandtoys
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 8:01am
I just wish the 180-190 would have had a fully independent pto. Also one of the Allis books show an experimental notill drill based on the AC notill coulters. This would have been great and would have made cover cropping take off years sooner. The notill opener on many early shortline drills were very lacking. Tom


Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 9:13am
I love this posting. EPAllis wanted a D15 III. If all of the D's could have had a series IV, then all of them would have had float, lower, neutral, and raise in their hydraulic functions.  I wished a 6080 and a 8070 could have found their way to Independence. Maybe Gleaner could have put a hydro into a 6080 and maybe electric-hydraulics into both the 6000 and 8000 series tractors.  

  GREAT POSTING!!!


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2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C


Posted By: coggonobrien
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 10:46am
https://youtu.be/npgtGgWNgvc%20" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/npgtGgWNgvc


Posted By: orangeman
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 2:36pm
Well I'll chime in on the Industrial Side:  Wish AC or others would have continued their backhoe and crawler loader designs to include:

AC 715 Loader Backhoe with Four Wheel Drive with Full Cab, air conditioning and heat.
AC 652, 653 and 655 with wet steer clutches, pedal steering and side dump bucket.
AC/Fiat Allis 345C Series with 4 wheel steering, air conditioning and heat. 
AC Telehandler using an integral frame from an 840 Wheel Loader or 345B.
Continued work on the G2200 engine with a small turbo to use an optional engine on 650
series Crawler, Loader and Dozers. 

~ Orangeman


Posted By: cjarosz
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2022 at 12:38pm
I love my 190XT but I was just thinking about it last night as I finished unloading ground feed, a true live pto in all of the hundred series tractors but especially the 190 and 200’s and if they would have put a loader on the experimental H and made the first skid steer loader



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