A-C 180... Major Problem. Coolant in Oil. HELP!
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Topic: A-C 180... Major Problem. Coolant in Oil. HELP!
Posted By: nsula_country
Subject: A-C 180... Major Problem. Coolant in Oil. HELP!
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 10:33pm
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Guys, I have had this tractor since 02-2011. I noticed a little "blow by" and a little blue smoke when I bought it. But for $2700 I bought it. Fast forward to 07-2012 and about 40-60 hours later I have been noticing more "blow by" coming from the vent tube and the dipstick hole. Most noticeable at idle. Exhaust has not changed, just mild white-blue. Past few times I have checked the oil it had water drops on the upper part of the dip stick. I chalked it up to I had it outside in a rainstorm and some water got in and the blow by vapor and droplets were just the engine boiling it out. I checked the dipstick today and had gray sludge on the upper half of the stick and gray sludge in the crankcase vent tube. It tasted positive for the green stuff. Not the smartest thing, but cheaper than an oil sample! How do I check to find out where this is coming from??? I figure it could be head gasket, sleeve erosion, or sleeve o-ring. I do not even want to think of a cracked head. It did get hot the other day, leaves plugged the radiator while mowing +7' tall weeks, it boiled some water out. I put about 3 gallons of 50/50 in Saturday. Ran it 1/2 day Sunday, ran good, just had white vapor coming from crankcase. Just put a new Stewart Warner Oil Pressure gauge on it. 35-40 at idle, 55-65 at rated speed. At least that is a plus. Temp gauge broken, next on the list. Picture of the vapor.   Thanks, I need to fix it soon. This is my big iron. CT
------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Replies:
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 11:10pm
| I take the main hood off, drain the radiator,then roll the front end assembly forward.I'm talking about the whole front,axle ,wishbone,side rails,radiator.Now you can get at the pan decently.Drain oil and take the pan off.I always put some bolts back in where the side frames were fastened.I put the lower radiator hose back on the engine and then plug it with a sediment bowl and hose clamp.I take the upper radiator hose neck off of the thermostat housing and remove the thermostat.If the tractor has cab with a heater,I plug the heater hoses or route them together.I fill the block back up with water.I made a plate with a tire valve stem in it to bolt back on the thermostat housing.It doesn't take all that much air pressure to see where the water is coming from.--I can almost guarantee sleeve seal leakage.Probably a little wormy in the block area too.You just as well figure a complete overhaul if a sleeve seal is leaking. Good luck. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 5:45am
| Even use your old antifreeze for the test as it leaks easier than straight water. I had a 220 one time that didn't leak a drop for 2 days and then we plugged in the block heater and then we found the leak.....a sleeve Oring. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:27am
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The white component in the exhaust is steam. Blue is oil. Think hole plugs in the head, head gasket, sleeve o-rings. Antifreeze isn't a good lubricant additive. It should be accumulated at the bottom of the pan, out of reach of the oil dip stick. It should come out first as you loosen the drain plug. Gerald J. |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 8:53am
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Lynn, what do you mean "a little wormy in the block?" So I take it from the suggestions that it is probably not as simple as the head gasket. But to properly check I need to remove the front clip, drain oil, remove pan, fill with water, and pressurize. This will show where the leak is, correct? Questions I have. 1. If head/head gasket leaks, where will I see water? 2. If sleeve/sleeve o-ring, where will I see water? 3. Or will water just leak from somewhere and if so I must rebuild it? 4. Would it be foolish not to rebuild the head if I do a bottom end kit? 5. If I rebuild, should I use a diesel coolant filter/CSA additive to prevent cavitation erosion? I have never been this deep into an engine. That is why I am asking probably simple questions. Thanks, CT
------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: scott
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 12:16pm
| When the pan is pulled you will see a white water stain under the cylinder-s that leaks on the inside of the block. I would either get a different -good running- engine or completely redo the one you have. |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 1:28pm
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I have been thinking about this. I have had blow by and some exhaust smoke since I bought it. I check the oil before every use. Only lately I have noticed the increase in white discharge from the dipstick tube and crankcase breather tube along with condensation on the dipstick and vent tube. The increase happened when I let the radiator plug with leaves and chaff (missing the grill, bush hog ate it) and I boiled some water out, not all (3 gallons). Temp gauge is non-op. My fault for operating it w/o instruments. Could it be the head gasket was weak and when it got hot it started leaking? If I pull the head will I find a clean(er) piston where the problem cylinder is? IF it is only a head gasket, will using SCA additives slow the erosion problems until another day to do a major OH? Just thinking before I strip half the tractor apart to find a leak. I can get a upper end gasket kit including head gasket for $125. In frame kit is around $1200 + $??? for reworking of head. If it was a sleeve perforated, wouldn't I be making oil with all that coolant flowing in? The oil level is only dropping slightly between uses, because it uses some oil. I do have a S-W mechanical water temp gauge on order. Thanks Orange Guru's! CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 2:34pm
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could very likely be head gasket. Look at it this way, if you were to find a pitted sleeve, you'll have to pull head off anyway. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Reindeer
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 3:07pm
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I had some similar problems on another make, and when I lifted the rocker arm cover, there was a crack in the head. It had been fixed with JB Weld or something like it, but was still leaking. New head and it runs like a top. Might as well start at the top as others suggested and work you way down to the problem. ------------- |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 7:37pm
| Only gonna say this once....get the oil pan off of it and pressurize the cooling system with anitfreeze in it. Pull the valve cover too. You go yanking off the head and you lose all diagnosing ability. ..end of story. |
Posted By: Acdiesel
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 8:03pm
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with the oil pan off and you dont see any leaks,you could also do a cylinder leak down test, where you pressurize each cylinder on its compression stroke.this could tell you if you have a bad head or head gasket. with the radiator full and the cap off you will see the coolant bubbling. good luck.
also just my two cents if you do have to stick $2000 into the engine for what you paid for the tractor it will still have some good resale value, if you ever choose to resell it. ------------- D19 Diesel,D17 Diesel SER.3 2-D14, 2-D15 SER.II WF/NF D15 SER.2 DIESEL D12 SER.I, D10 Ser.II 2-720'S D21 Ser. II Gmc,caterpillar I'm a pharmacist (farm assist) with a PHD (post hole digger) |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 8:59pm
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I cranked it tonight. Warmed it up. Un-hooked the bush hog. Then made some checks. 1. Coolant got foamy, occasionally I would see a large bubble. Could have been expanding water/coolant, could have been compression. I would hear the engine lope every now and then, when this happened a bubble would surface while the water would fall and rise... 2. I was getting condensate and gray milk on the top of the stick again. Oil still looked black... 3 Oil pressure was still 35-40 at idle, new Stewart Warner gauge. 4. Shut it down. Pondering the situation. Waiting for more info from Orange Guru's. I was going to jerk the head off to look later in the week. Makes sense to pull the pan and check with a pressurized system. I know I got a good deal. I am not afraid to sink $2000 into the engine. I have a pair of NEW 18.4x28's and tubes waiting to go on it plus $600 worth of misc accessories (NOS used tach, alt w/drive, grill, tie rods; NEW steering wheel, cylinder kits, hyd pump kit, gauges, ect; 2 year old front tires.) I want to rebuild the injector pump and injectors. Fresh engine and paint it will be almost new. If I get there I will be seeking a factory canopy. I like this tractor. I will do as the Orange Guru's have mentioned. Pull front clip, seal off hoses, make a plate with a tire stem, drain oil, pull pan, watch for the obvious, rebuild this fall. I am still building a house, this sucks! But it is life... Back to the Farmall, for now. Thanks, CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 9:46pm
| If it has coolent leaking around the sleeve, don't do a inframe. Go all the way, take the engine out wash every thing good. Clean the block at bottom where orings set with sand papper and look for any worm like places. Cut a 3rd oring grove in new sleeves between the two already there and use another black oring. MACK |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 12:09am
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MACK. What is "all the way"? If I understand the 3rd o-ring part, it means chuck the sleeves in a lathe and cut another groove for another o-ring. Are you saying "all the way" means to remove and clean up??? Or is there more to it than that? Heck, I can get used engines that run for <$2800 + freight! D2800 and D2900. I'd be tempted to put a D2900 in there. Turbo up the 180!!! Seriously, What is an "In Frame" and what is "All The Way"? Never been here before, but the signs tell me I'm close. And what the heck is "wormy" and "worm like places"? Are these cavitation marks, corrosion, worms, rust worms, red wigglers??? Thanks, CT
------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 2:49am
| You can find a good running engine cheaper than that, just remember you maybe in the same boat in 6 months |
Posted By: Rogers
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 6:23am
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I woud bet on a sleeve oring. In frame means sleeve and piston kit with gaskets. Full kit has valves and parts to rebuild the head too. For what you paid for the tractor you can do it all and be good. ------------- Think for yourself and be your own expert. Be willing to change your mind; however, willingness to change your mind doesn’t mean that you will. Blindly following any path is the pinnacle of insanity. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 7:03am
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In frame you cannot measure crank mains. If it has antifreze in oil there is a good chance the mains have wear.
Worm marks are places where water has went past the orings cutting into block. MACK
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Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 7:28am
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Great advice. If you remove the the engine from the tractor (out of frame) then I would strip the block and have it hot tanked at your local machine shop to clean the crud inside & out. Then you can have them magnuflux (sp?) the block to check for cracks you can't see with the naked eye. To be honest, for what you want to do to the rest of the tractor I would only consider doing a major (out of frame) overhaul. Then you know from the bottom end to the top end and everything in between is good. ------------- AGCO My Allis Gleaner Company |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 2:19pm
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Have any of you done a major OH on a D2800 or D2900 lately? I am just curious of what all parts and machine shop services added up to. Does it matter what kit I buy? They range from <$1000 to >$2000 for the same parts (sleeves, pistons, rings, gaskets, bearings, ect). Is it just mark up or are there good kits and bad kits? Some are less than $1000 SHIPPED! From what I can tell a full kit is about $1200, including valves. Reworked head ready to go is about $800. Not including any machine work on block. What would it cost to rework my head if not cracked and just grind valves, surface, ect? $300? What if crank needs turned? $200? I have no idea what to expect here, other than it will have to be done. OR I may just part the dang thing out and sell all the other parts I bought... Man I'd hate to do that though. Buckle up! I am guessing $2000-$2500 to go through it 100% IF there are not OTHER PROBLEMS! Thanks, CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 2:26pm
| If you could pull the engine yourself that would help you , its pretty simple , take it to a good mechanic to rebuild , there not that hard to do , if the fuel system was good , dont worry bout it ; the engines still running so there shouldnt be too many suprises , if you wanta sell it , id be interested !!!!! |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 2:51pm
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Rebuild the engine then you'll know what you got. Go out and buy another used tractor and you may be back in the same boat. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2012 at 2:56pm
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Fuel system is ok. I think it could use a pump and injector job though. More or less for peace of mind and the injector pump drips diesel around the shut off shaft. If I rebuild I will do it. Hot tank and head work I would do at a shop. Probably have the head and block magged. How hard can it be to take it apart, pull and replace 6 sleeves and pistons. Sleeve removal would be the hardest part in my mind. I say this, but have never done it before. I do like the idea of adding a 3rd o-ring. I am also doing a first to my old 1979 C20. I am in the middle of a cam swap. Never been inside a SBC, until now. I do not mind the mechanic work so much when it is a hobby. If it was my primary tractor or truck I would be nutting up! ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: AlVee
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 2:38pm
| If your going to spend the time and money to over haul the motor pump and injectors are a must and make sure you take the radiator to a shop and have it gone through cheap insurance new motor = fresh radiator also put all new rubber hoses on any of the cooling system parts and new thermostat then everything is at the same place fresh or new. I have seen to many guys spend the money on the big ticket stuff and forget about the small stuff that could over heat that fresh motor. |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 5:01pm
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Hoses and thermostat are a given. The radiator appears to have been out at one time before I bought it. It still looks good, but I would probably have it checked out as well. I am still on the fence. Lick wounds and sell. OR, keep. I am leaning on keep. Engine major, injector pump/injectors, cooling system. I have new tires and other misc parts. Sheet metal is decent enough to work with. Trans DOESN'T jump gears (but once in reverse). Hydraulics are strong, one finger steering. Add paint I should have as close to a new 180 as possible! I am going to do it! Even though I may end up, upside down on it. Curious what it would be worth completely rebuilt with all new rubber and accessories? Thanks for talking sense into me. Half-arsed or a used pull motor is foolish. Go BIG or go HOME! CT
------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: 2wise4agm
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 7:16pm
| Beware of the cheapest engine kit you can find. Name brand quality parts are worth their weight in gold inside a new engine. |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 12:28am
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What are the differences? Seems most are Clevite brand? CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: 2wise4agm
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 8:25am
| I've always had good luck with clevite stuff, but I have also seen some off brand sleeves with weird casting flaws in them and bearings with the tangs in the wrong location and very inconsistent thicknesses. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 8:31am
| My 180(knock on my wooden head) is getting tired, it has considerable blowby and eats a quart of oil every few weeks of reasonable use but does me well. When and IF I can get a shop up I want to do a full major OH with a full repaint and re-decal, catch the old girl up for longevity. Just had the pump gone through, had a issue with rolling the seals but that was me re-installing it not the tractor, runs great, starts easy and still does a good days work. |
Posted By: ac45
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 9:01am
| F combine engine for a swap would be a reasonable approach. To be honest, the tracotr probably had that issue when you bought it, So hard telling how long it was run or had been that way, you probabbly have bearing damage due to the anitfreeze, if you ever have to run an engine like tha tyou need to drain antifreeze and use straight water as the anitfreeze eats the bearing material up with a chemical reaction. around hear you can get a complete combine ngine for 1000 to 1500, but can probabbly buy the whole machine for 1500 to 2500 |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 2:00pm
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I have changed the oil a couple of times since I bought it. I did not notice any water in the oil when I changed it. Last oil change was in May 2012. I am optimistic I caught it early enough that MAYBE the crank is in good shape. It still starts and runs fine, no strange noises. I have noticed while operating, it has an odd smell while running under a load. Kinda like hot paint. I think it could have been burning antifreeze! Used engines scare me! Too much risk to be reliable. There is a reason it is sold cheap. Even if it was "running" and the reason was "trans failed", I'm sure it was abused. When I open it up, I will know. I will keep the readers posted on the findings. I am finishing up on the cam change in the 1979 C20. Once it is running again, I will have a place to pull the 180 into. Happy Friday 13th! CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: FLOrange
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 8:47pm
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I came across this thread while doing a Google search. I realize that this is almost 5 years old, but I would love to hear the "rest of the story" on your 180. What did you find out about the engine? What repairs did you ultimately end up doing? Was it worse or not as bad as you thought? Thanks for any update. |
Posted By: NICKMI
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 8:16am
| His last visit to forum was 2014 |
Posted By: BigBadAllis
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 8:50am
Probably due to check in any day  Tastes the oil to check for antifreeze gets me. Maybe he's sick from doing this too often. Anyone who wants oil analysis, I'll run it for the Allis guys at my cost for consumables (instrument materials). $12.00 to any forum members. Engine oil gets fuel dilution/TAN/TBN + the normal wear metals, additives, contaminates and viscosity at 40°/100° + index Hyd/Trans oil will get particle count but no TBN Jason Apex Oil Lab (616) 328-6672 I'm a long time Allis guy. Not trying to get free advertisement. |
Posted By: FLOrange
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 7:22pm
| I guess I should have checked that. I thought maybe he'd get an e-mail about the new message and respond. But if he's like me, he probably gets too many e-mails to keep track of. |
Posted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 5:00pm
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I'm still here! Antifreeze hasn't got me yet! I have done nothing to the 180... Haven't even cranked it in about a year, but plan to charge batteries soon and move it. It is on the bucket list and may get done this fall/winter. Since last updates, we built a 40x60 shop with a 30x60 lean all concrete. So at least I have somewhere to store and work on equipment. Also in 2014 (same time I fell off the forum) we purchased a LS P7010C tractor. 72 hp, 4x4, cab... Farmall 504 and Allis 180 have went back burner. CT ------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |
Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 8:52pm
| what's an LS P7010C tractor? |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 10:52pm
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Shameless you do know how to google don't you? I know, the answer is "why when I got you?".
IVECO 4 cyl Engine, 72 Gross Engine HP, Cab w/ Heat and A/C, Ag Tires Rear: 16.9x30 Front 11.2x24, 26.42 Gallons of Fuel Capacity, Transmission: F20/R20 (Creeper) Shuttle Shift, Independent PTO (540/750/1000rpm), Automatic Lift Arm, CAT 2 Three point Hitch, 3 pairs of Double Acting Hydraulic Remotes (6 outlets), 7-Pin rear Electrical Socket, Teloscopic Lower Links, Weight 6675lbs without loader Now I feel like I did my good deed for the day.
------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Standard SpecsPosted By: nsula_country
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 5:06pm
|
LS is a South Korean tractor company that is established in the US. They used to build a lot of the New Holland and Case IH tractors until they started US distribution. I can say that standard features, power and loader capacities beat green, red, blue and orange tractors in the same class for less. Have close to 500 hours on it. 0 problems. It is quiet and comfortable. This review is mine. Last 3 pictures are of the actual machine. http://www.tractorbynet.com/guide/LSTractor/lsp7010c.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tractorbynet.com/guide/LSTractor/lsp7010c.html Tractor Data Specs http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/8/1/7812-ls-p7010.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/007/8/1/7812-ls-p7010.html I needed a dependable tractor now. So we bought it. As time permits, I will repair the Farmall 504 and Allis 180. Thank you for reviving the thread. I promise when I dig into the issue, I will update this thread! CT
------------- 2014 LS P7010C, 1962 Farmall 504 Diesel (1st tractor) w/ 2008 Koyker 220 FEL, 1968 Allis Chalmers 180 Diesel, Komatsu PC38UU-2 Excavator, Various attachments for all! |