Valve Job on a WD45?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43962
Printed Date: 14 May 2025 at 12:10pm
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Topic: Valve Job on a WD45?
Posted By: oscarjwm
Subject: Valve Job on a WD45?
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 2:02pm
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Short question: I've pulled the head off of my WD45 to extract a broken spark plug, and was wondering if there any pro's and con's of doing a valve job while it is off of the tractor? I have the head at home with me, but the rest of the tractor is 2 hours away, so I am not able to check the pistons and rings anytime soon.
Long story: I have a WD45 that has been in the family since the 60's. It has been a workhorse that has needed minimal repair. In the summer of 2010, I was brushogging with it and it stalled on a steep hill. After verifying that it had fuel, I tried to pull a plug to check the spark. Unfortunately, the plug snapped, leaving the threads stuck inside the head. After 2 years (I had another project tractor- a 1967 Ford 4000 to use in the interim) of using plenty of PB blaster, a propane torch, and two extractors, I gave up. One extractor fell into the cylinder, and the other extractor broke flush with the head when I applied too much torque. So, I pulled the head last weekend.
The engine was running kind of rough in 2010, would fire on 3 cylinders (miss), backfire a bit until it was warm and then it would start firing on the 4th. It was definitely overdue for a tuneup when I broke the plug. I also noticed when I pulled the head that the valves need adjustment- there was quite a gap between the valve and arm. The cylinder walls look good, maybe some slight scoring on one, but there is a lot of carbon build up on the piston and valves.
I'm taking it to a machine shop to get the spark plug removed, and while I am at it, I'll have them check out the valves. Any pro's or con's to getting a valve job done if needed? I've heard this might increase blowby if the pistons/rings are in bad shape, which I can't verify.
Just for fun, here is a pic with the head removed.
 This forum looks like a great resource. Thanks in advance for any advice! I'll definitely be using some anti-seize compound on the plugs when I get this put back together!
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Replies:
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 2:29pm
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be a good idea to overhaul it top to bottom ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Denis in MI
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 2:52pm
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If I were you I'd have the Valve Job done and check the bearings with some plastigauge and look for a ridge a the top of the cylinders. If it has a lip in the cylinder you can either ream the lip off and cobble it back together with some oversize rings (I've done this and while I'm not proud of it I can't see spending more money than the tractor is worth on a set of sleeves and pistons) or do a complete overhaul. It is all up to you, do you want to spend a couple hundred bucks or more than likely over a thousand? If there isnt a lip you might be able to just throw a set of rings in it or check to see how much end gap they have. Just my humble opinion, Denis
------------- 1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14 |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 2:58pm
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Hi Oscar, welcome to the forum! Well, if you already have the head off, you're at a perfect point to freshen up lots of things, and it's not very difficult to handle. If you're not satisfied with your own abilities, you have two good options- one is to have the machine shop do it, another is to find another tractor or old engine enthusiast to stand alongside and show you how to do it. There's NOTHING... and I mean NOTHING in a WD-45 that cannot be accomplished by a sensible guy with basic tools and a little knowledge. Having experience, just means you've taken the time to obtain the knowledge whilst using the basic tools. With this, and the fact that you've already pulled the head, fresh in mind, I'd say that you're fine with EITHER approach, but the latter is a perfect opportunity. First of all, take a valve spring compressor and compress one of the valve springs, remove the retainer clips and spring, put the stuff in a tupperware container so it doesn't get dropped into a crack in the floor. Next, withdraw the valve, and give it a really close look. Does it look like there's much wear between the guide and the valve stem? Does the sealing edge of the valve (the face) look eroded, pitted, burned, or mutilated? If not, you'll need a lapstick, some lapping compound, a radio, and a can of your favorite beverage. If not, you'll need a valve-grinder, some seats, guides, and a little more experince at your side. Probably better to have the machine-shop do it, unless you're willing to keep her out-of-commission for a while. To lap the valves, coat the valve face in a few places with some lapping compound. If the compound is dry, take a little motor oil and make it into a moderate paste. Drop the valve into it's place, put the lapstick's suction cup against it, and pray to the God of Valves... put your hands together (as in prayer) with the lapstick between, and roll the lapstick back-and-forth... don't try to spin it really fast, and don't try to push really hard. You'll feel the abrasive working... it'll feel 'rough'... and then, it'll start to smooth out. Lift up the valve, and observe what the lapping compound does to the sealing 'face' of the valve. You'll see that as you work it, the valve seat and valve faces will adopt a 'pattern'... a stripe where the contact occurs, and the lapping compound has 'ground' the face of the valve, and the face of the seat, to create a sealing surface. After you've made a good, consistent band all the way around, wipe off the lapping compound, and move it to the next valve, and repeat. What you're doing, is re-machining the valve faces to match their 'mated' valve seats, so don't re-arrange the valves after you've lapped 'em! Make sure you rinse out all the lapping compound before you reassemble the engine. Invariably, SOME abrasive will find it's way into the cylinders, which isn't good for cylinders, but most will go right out the exhaust... better to hose it all down, then wipe everything off with clean paper towels. When you reassemble the head, set the valve clearances per the book. As for cylinders experiencing blowby from a new valve job... bah... if they're blowin' by from wear, they'll blow. Again, the WC/WD/WD45/D17 engines- they're all wet-sleeve design... if you get lots of wear, you can pop the pan, unbolt each rod, bump the rod and liner straight up, and lift the whole assembly out, one cylinder at-a-time, drop in new liners and liner O-rings, put new rings on new pistons on the original rods, replace and/or shim the rod and main bearings, put it back together and head for the field. As for one cylinder dropping out, if you suffer an oily plug (compare 'em all side-by-side) then either it's because there's a little blowby, or your magneto and wires need a little refreshing. Try new wires first (use solid core, not resistor type). Also- non-resistance plugs... and my suggestion is to use something other than Champion plugs... (simply because the only plugs I've ever had that clearly failed, were Champions). Many guys recommend Autolites, but there's many suitable plugs available. Anti-seize on the plugs probably won't help much... as hot as the plug gets, aluminum and copper-based compounds frequently don't survive. Best thing is just to take the plugs out once-a-year for an inspection, and tighten them only enough to seat 'em solid. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 3:22pm
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just as a FYI I just had the head on my 226 done at a engine shop. They replaced the exhaust valves, guides and seats, resurfaced the face and hot boiled it to get some of the crude out. The intakes were fine. Also fluxed the head for cracks. $300 was my bill. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 4:07pm
Denis- Thanks! Great advice. I'm going to get a complete gasket set since the rear main seal is leaking, so I might as well check out the bearings while I have the oil pan off. I'll check for a lip on the cylinder before I install the head too. As you can see from the shape the tractor is in, its not worth much, but worth much more to me in sentimental value and worth a couple hundred bucks to keep it running.
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Denis in MI wrote:Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 4:18pm
Dave- Wow, I'm blown away from the time everyone has taken to help me out! Thanks! Can I nominate this for post of the year?
I think I could handle the valve job myself, but it would be quite a while before I'd have the time. I think I'm going to save your "how-to" for next time, since I have quite a few old engines sitting around that I might tackle myself someday. I appreciate the advice about not worrying about the blowby. I'm also happy to know that this seems to be an easy engine to work on if I need to overhaul the pistons/rings/cylinders. I think I'll go ahead and have the machine shop drill out the spark plug, and have them check out the valves. I've got two shops quoting me a worst case scenario of $230-250 for the spark plug extraction and a complete valve job. I'll check out the cylinders and bearings based on Denis' advice, and assuming everything is good, I'll give it a tune up and hope to have it running in a month or so.
FYI- the spark plug that snapped was an AC Delco. I'll admit it has been a few years since I removed them- but that is just a testament to how well this thing has been running over the years (and what can happen if you neglect routine maintenance on your tractor).
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 5:41pm
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well it would be great advice . But most of the time the valves are sunken and need new seats due to years of running on unleaded gas. If this is the case then new seats and a valve job is the only correct repair. unless you are wanting bigger valves then the old seats can be cut to get a few more years of service from. just my humble opinion. I have done both and sold several refurbished heads on this site. ps oversized rings are not a remedy for worn bores either . They were designed so one can file fit the rings for a specific ring end gap and performance gains from doing so. Not to mention valve springs usually havve fallen way below specification as well ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 11:51am
| If you do decide that new sleeves and pistons are required, check to see if you have a WD-45 or WD engine. The pistons are different. I suspect you have a WD (201) engine rather than the WD-45 (226) engine based on the fact that it is equipped with a magneto and there is a side plate which covers the push rods. With the head removed, it is easy to check the stroke by measuring the distance between BDC and TDC of the piston travel. 4" for the WD and 4-1/2" for the WD-45. |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 9:29pm
| have to go along with pankey and dave...do it right or park it...one thing dave failed to mentionwas,make sure the recess where the top of the sleeves are super clean,also make sure the bottom of the block where the sleeve o rings fit are ultra clean and smooth also...go for it |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 9:43pm
ML- What year did Allis stop installing hardened valve seats in their engines? I haven't found one that had recession problems... |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 6:20am
| Oscar I was just where you are at last year with my 15 II. I personally would get the head checked out by a pro and get his opinion. 300 bucks should probably get you a head ready for another 50 years. Dana |
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 7:12am
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oscdar A post like that always gets the same answer. if the thing did not smoke or knock and it was mine i would just get that head back on right. That is if you do not plan on working the bejesus out of it. I have a reired JD 420 out in the barn with 120 hours on the motor in the last 10 years. I am the only one that knows that there are new pistons and a rebore in the motor. so to me it is how it was running and what you are gonna do with it.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 7:12am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 10:12pm
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So you're saying that NO 201 3 inch Allis head came with replaceable valve seats... obviously, if they're not replaceable, you expect someone to send in a head to have non-replaceable valve seats to be replaced? No, if there's a valve in ANYTHING, the seat is somehow replaceable... that means that NO valve seats are non-replaceable. My point here should be pretty clear... but if not, I'll offer my observations. I currently own one '37, two '38's and a '39WC, a '50 WD, and a D-17 Series 1. Every one has hardened valve seats, and out of all those engines, not a single one has ever shown the slightest reason to need new valve seats, and NONE of them show any signs of receeding. I've rebuilt three Model A Fords, and had people tell me horror stories about how I shouldn't run them on unleaded fuel, because of valve seat recession. It's total bullcrap. Study your history: Kettering Labs introduced TEL to the fuel market, and tried for YEARS to get it carried in motor fuel mixes, but nobody was interested in the cost. Tetraethyl lead was not added to motor fuels in substantial amounts until AFTER WW2, as it was added to aviation fuels to help improve performance at higher altitudes, at combat-power levels. It wasn't until well after WW2 that auto manufacturers (particularly those in close economic proximity to Kettering Labs) decided to 'save' the cost of hardened valve seats and rely on the TEL (and planned obsolescense) to keep their AUTOMOBILE engines in Joe Public's pocketbook. When the NO-LEAD mandates were being drawn up, the horror-stories started circulating. Hardened valve seats were part of industrial engine history from the git-go. Model A Fords were never built with the intention of running TEL, nor were agricultural, industrial, or heavy truck engines that were expected to last long enough to satisfy a SMART customer. As for poor workmanship prior, or active position of valvetrain, even what you consider to be poor valvetrain geometry, that's totally irrelevant- if they're trashed because some fool worked on it before, it either ran, or it didn't. If the rocker arm geometry wasn't good enough for you from the factory, apparently that's why Allis went out of business before the WD, D17, and 170 were made. Remember what he said was happening before this started? Bushhogging? It's dropping one cylinder occasionally... probably a combination of several things... the broken spark-plug was probably one contributor... but a little freshening-up of the seats, a lash adjustment, and visit to the magneto wizard probably will... along with a check out the manifold gasket/mating surfaces, and make sure there's no crack between the intake and exhaust side causing a leak. It needs a little TLC and some exercise, not a heart, lung, and kidney transplant. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 7:20am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 8:14am
I most certainly DO know how to remove seats, and I've done it with many other techniques besides a TIG. So make up your mind- did they, or didn't they come with replaceable seats? Regardless of what the manual says, EVERY SEAT is replaceable. That doesn't mean it needs to be replaced... nor does every head need to be blanket rebuilt and blueprinted to do a respectable job. You may be of the opinion that the geometry is faulty, but is YOUR 60-year-old geometry as solid and reliable as THAT engine's? I doubt any of us could say so. We still work just fine, and there's plenty of tolerance for wear. Lapping it doesn't change the position of the seat with respect to the head. Lapping it DOES cause the valve to drop in a smidgen, but I challenge you to get an accurate measurement on a DI... because you won't... the amount of drop is insignificant not only to a DI, but also in terms of wether the valve will continue to operate well and flow appropriately for an ordinary stock non-competition idiot-performance engine. MOST of these engines have NO REASON to be suspected of poor shade-tree-mechanic work. MOST of these engines got the best thing an INDUSTRIAL engine could ever need- nothing more than regular exercise and occasional oil-changes. To expect that they were frequently worked on is downright WRONG- most of the time, they didn't even get the occasional freshening-up (ignition tuneup, valve lash adjustments, etc) that were specified, and they kept running days-to-years. Your presumption of valve spring pressures falling off in terms of new-break-in being an indication to extended-length weakening is false. The premise that new-to-break-in pressure drop of 5lbs on the seat continues is not true- it is a function of elastic properties of the steel. When manufactured, springs are wound of a specific steel alloy that is initially annealed. A manufacturer may choose to heat-treat the springs, and in less expensive alloys, heat-treatment was necessary to make a spring last... but Allis had the forefront in metallurgists, foundry, and machining engineers guided by the absolute best industrial engineers on the planet. Rather than subject an inexpensive alloy to manufacturing process, and then run it through a lengthy heat-treatment process, they made them from a more expensive alloy, and went from hot wire to a cooling spring within a very controlled timeframe, so that the wire HEAT TREATED ITSELF... the initial temperature change from annealing, to roll/wrapping to cutting, then to cooling established the 'test pressure' that a new spring should indicate. Once installed, the FINAL HARDENING was by WORK. In the WORKING WINDOW, a spring's internal stresses cause it to harden, and some of the initial indications will drop off. At that point, the spring's final properties will be established, and it will last incredibly well. You regularly base your statements upon drivel written in automotive performance magazines. With the exception of some cars made up through 1935, automobiles haven't had 'industrial' engines. They were built (and advertised in rating) to satisfy consumers, and last just long enough so that consumers would return and buy another when they got tired of the first one. As many in the service world would put it "Built to be profitable before AND AFTER the sale." Industrial engines, on the other hand, were built to satisfy a very serious function, and be perpetually serviceable under performance criteria that an automobile magazine would never respect: Real numbers, with conservative ratings, operating under the worst conditions, with minimal maintenance. This is the reason why you'll see a whole lot more old industrial engines out chugging away, when cars of the same era are long-since-gone. You respond to virtually every post from the perspective that the poster is somehow interested in making a competition engine... this is incredibly misguiding for those who ask, and for everyone else, illustrates you as being an arrogant and foolish man, when you're actually probably not. When reading posts, consider the reality of the OP's question, suspend your inclinations to suggest radicalism, and accept the fact that when these tractors were built, the ENGINEER's performance criteria, and performance criteria of the farmers who BOUGHT the machines, were substantially different from YOURS. |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 10:10am
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WELL said Dave. I too am not building a hot rod, only trying to fix up an old relic before it gets worse. Can't afford all those extras and just want to farm with her. Thanks for the input. Ted ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 10:44am
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I would also like to know if I can tell the difference between a factory spec valve train and one that has had seats and valves ground a couple times, while I am out raking hay? NOT!!
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 12:39pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 9:20pm
I'll be more willing to bet that if Charlie and you were listening to exhaust, he'd be able to tell a whole lot more about the engine than you could. I've seen his shop, and his work.
Really? What were you measuring with... a pitchfork?
If the bowl has been hogged and seat blended, it's obviously not this gentleman's engine now, is it?
Panky, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would be such a foolish liar to make this statement. If you had half the experience you boast of working on these, you would've sawed a few bad ones in half to see what there really was for meat. "60 years of corrosion and erosion" don't mean squat on an engine that's been filled with coolant, devoid of an oxygen environment, even if not kept in a running condition. If you've really been IN them, and had the wisdom to tell the truth, you wouldn't have made that statement. Anybody with HALF an interest in these, knows that the old 3" tall heads have a thicker deck than the later 4" tall ones... I observed .370-.330 thick on a 3" head and about .270 -.300 thick on the 4" heads. I'd venture a guess that there wasn't much deviation and very little core shift on these castings. Anyone care to put up their numbers or contest mine? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 9:46pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: scott
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 8:02am
| My D-17 went from a stumble to a oil pan full of water. I changed the o rings, honed the cylinders, and installed new rings on the pistons. The water is now gone from the oil pan but it still has a small stumble... I wish I'd sent the head in and had the valves reworked while I had the head off. The head may cost $300 but also have to add in gaskets, antifreeze, oil, etc. if it has to be torn into again. I'd do it while the head is off. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 8:27am
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Keep backpedalin' pankey, someday you'll get somewhere other than nowhere. You started with the woes of valve seat recession, then on to guides, geometry, and springs, and every step of the way, it's all about 'competition'. Each time you get caught with a lie, you backpedal. You have no concept of what constitutes tractor and industrial engine performance. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 8:40am
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Oh I ain't back peddling. Just realized you don't know much about the composition of cast iron. .I f you ever did anything above lapping like grinding you would find not all castings the same. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 9:12am
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So what's the big deal about springs falling off 5 lbs? I know guys that pull and have to run half sized or less spring because the cam is ground half way in two to let the rods clear. They run 850+ cu in in a MM block and run by the rules in their class. 10% over rated engine RPM. Tractor engines at rated RPM with proper grinding of the valve kinda makes a check valve, it has to be pushed open and compression only pushes it shut, so why the fuss about spring pressure.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 9:13am
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Scott- describe the stumble, and your situation a bit more... there's many things that will cause running problems, and the cylinder head is the last one to blame. When the head is off, it's easy and advantageous to give them a good workover, and it doesn't take carrying it off to a shop and dropping three bills to do it. A boy with a spring-compressor, lapstick, compound, and wire wheel can work wonders in 30 minutes. If there's any expensive problems (and usually there isn't), you'll see them firsthand, and the repair is pretty obvious. Let me explain what I see to be the big sociological problem here. To many people, cylinder heads, valvetrain, etc., are voodoo, because when they talk to someone across a counter at a machine shop, they get quoted a high pricetag. They infer from this (and panky's exhaust popping) that there's some mysterious and fantastic precision magic that has to occur in order to make this thing 'just right'. It could not be farther from the truth. These cylinder heads were made of good castings, and the manufacturing assembly was elegantly simple to watch, and also to work on after. A cured casting is placed it in a hand-made locating fixture, and drilled for all head bolts and valve guides. Once cooled (again), it's moved to a milling machine that cut the surface of the cylinder head. It was allowed to cool again, then placed in a jig that located and pressed in the valve guide inserts... the press was just a basic arbor-press with an operator stepping on a pedal. After that, it was placed in a mill that cut the valve seat recess AND any flashing that appeared inside the valve bowl. After that, the valve seat was set in place using a tool that looked somewhat like a slide hammer, and it slide into the valve guide bore... basically whacked it in place, and then 'staked' the edges. Then, a motorized grinding tool was dropped into each guide and slid down to take a slight cut in the guide... not for making the guide properly shaped, but so that the inspector could verify that the guide was concentric to the hole, and flush in the recess... if it wasn't, the pattern would be askew on the hardened valve's face. After that, the valves were set in position and lapped, rinsed, springs, retainers, and keepers installed, and off to engine assembly. The result was an excellent cylinder head, produced with very good accuracy and consistency in a very short time. The great thing, is because of it's simplicity, and the amount of tolerance allowed in it's design, they were easy to keep within good operating tolerance, and henceforth, it didn't take rocket-science to make them run well forever. If you take the casting, bare, and knock out all the seats and valve guides, scrub it clean, check it for cracks, and then install new guides and seats (with a simple locating tool and hammer), then you can use an antique hand-operated grinder, a lapping stick and compound, with new valves, springs, and keepers. Or you can put the head on a table, release each valve with a spring compressor, wire brush each valve, scrub the head, look for cracks, check the welch (frost) plugs, drop in each valve, see if it wobbles in the guide, then lap it, reinstall the springs, and it'll work great. You'll know if you've got a sacked-out spring... if you can't get the valve to move by pressing with the heel of your hand, you've got plenty of seat force. 2 hours on a Saturday afternoon, and you're back in operation, running well, and you saved your $300 for a carb kit, a manifold gasket set, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and one new front tire. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 9:51am
(and in doing so, he backpedals more) What would you like to know about the composition of cast iron? nickle, silicon, and other alloys, metallurgy, shrink rates, mold preparation, malleability testing, selection of cutting tools, speed or feed rates for HSS or carbide, preheat for welding? They're not all required for an engineering degree, but it's all excellent stuff to know if you plan on being worthwhile around machine tools, or at the very least, understanding how economy-of-scale gave Allis Chalmers the ability to produce these things cheaply, in the face of substantially larger competition. BTW... have you ever cast iron in your driveway? Yeah, I have... I've stood atop the gas blowing engines of the furnaces in Bethlehem, PA too... even have cross-section diagrams of the brick-patterns of the stove towers. For your next trick, I suggest you attempt to dismiss the viability of nickle introduction into nodular vs. grey iron, or how it limits crystalization to yield higher shear strength under conditions of assymetrical section modulus, as that would have the greatest correlation and relevancy to any attempt you've made so far. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 10:28am
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so you know its porous which contradicts just cutting it in half and measruing deck thickness. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 12:03pm
| pankey must be out of magazines to read again. |
Posted By: BobHnwO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 1:10pm
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You guys all go take a pill or somethin!!!
------------- Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 2:02pm
True but reads a bit over simplified. There happens to be a few of the details that needs to be understood. I have in the past put on pictures of cylinder heads that people that thought is was just that simple and ended up with a head that would not hold compression. The task of lapping is probly the most understood part. Lapping does not take the place of grinding or cutting seats and refacing the valves. Lapping is in addition to. Lapping is done like a washing machine agitator works not spun with an electric drill. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 2:09pm
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I'm Sorry. I didn't resist the earge to enter the slide away from the question as I should have. If the above engine was mine I would rework the head and if I had the funds I would rebuild the bottom while it was partly disassembled. However if it was not a oil using smoker before, and didn't have a bunch of money to put into it, I would put the head back on and repair other necessary parts.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 6:38pm
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Dave if using your advice all 226 oem springs need changed or some need to man up . 1 3/4 height oem spring 30-39lbs 1 5/16 55-65 lbs on seat for oem a man should be able to push either of those down with his hand ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 10:17pm
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Okay, Pank- time to learn to read, then think, without opening mouth- you've already got two feet in it already: "if you can't get the valve to move by pressing with the heel of your hand, you've got plenty of seat force." How does this test condemn a spring? DUH-- it doesn't... but it DOES prove that the spring is stout enough to not need a lick of attention. You're right on about the grinding process, Dick- I've got a slick little valve grinder and several different guide-mandrel type motorized grinding tools here- one of 'em is somewhat of a rarity- it's a Brown & Sharpe from the early '50's, and it does a really nice job, but I've only needed it twice... once many years ago for a Hercules JXLD (331ci flathead six) in a generator that I rescued, and most recently in a Fairbanks-Morse 118ci oilfield single. The former had been sitting with that port full of rain, and the valve yanked the seat out when I rolled it over, and the latter had it's exhaust valve stem incredibly-well adhered to the guide... I had to torch the (sodium filled) valve out, in order to drive the guide and stem duo out, and push in a new guide. In the process, I spalled a little spot in the guide, but rather than yank out an otherwise perfectly good piece, I just ground it a smidgen, lapped it in, and put it back together. I've never found need to employ the grinder on any Allis heads, nor have I ever found a head that needed a $300 bill to get a cylinder head solidly back in the land of the living. Reiterating his original explanation... he was bushhogging, and it got fussy... went to pull a plug, and the plug broke off. If he was bushhogging, I'm thinkin' it wasn't in too bad'a shape to begin with. Now, Pankey's original allegation was that valve damage should be expected on the basis that the Allis engine was somehow intolerant of fuels without lead. I called him on this lie, and he should've been bright enough to not go there in the first place. He's got a little inferiority complex going on. Perhaps someday he'll learn that lying to newbies is the number-one way to dash friendships old-and-new, but based on how he's treated people elsewhere, I really don't think that's going to happen. |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 10:58pm
| How about those St. Louis Blues!! I may get to see a stanley cup in my lifetime in St. Louis!!! Ryan |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 11:08pm
| Just thought I would try to relieve the tension among our orange friends!! Ryan |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 11:54am
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In the time pankey spent lying to us in this thread I could have reconditioned a stack of stock cylinder heads to a sufficient status for use in any of our old tractors. It costs me less than a whopping $100 for a complete set of valves, guides, springs, etc. For that I don't spend much time with old parts.
If there's a junk head in TN, I'll fix it (cylinder head that is). Never found one yet that I couldn't deal with or use in another application. Cutting and installing seats is a real simple task, and one doesn't have to get carried away, one can trim the seats easy enough. Though with poor tools, inadequate supplies and not much knowledge at $100 an hour shop rate I can see why some would condem a part. But with shop rate that high as posted on the YTmag forum, I'd wonder why so much time to spend on the computer.
But that's probably why someone offered me $200 to see one that underwent extensive work.
I've got a stack of cylinder heads for these old engines piled up like coard wood in an old horse shed. For kicks after reading this thread I went and looked at a few early and late, tall and short. One of the short heads I had has threaded valve seats in it, no seats as someone removed them, but verry large bores for it and cut deep. Something odd. Though the decks on all the short heads are thicker than any of the tall heads. Period. Trust me, I've cut apart and sonic tested my share of heads.
The best head to use for a "performance" application for a pulling tractor is the old 3" tall Leroi head. It's cast different than an Allis.
I'm not going to sit here and argue for hours on end, but I'm makeing the point that it's not tough to keep these old Allis engines alive and well. Mine can't tell a difference sitting around running grain augers or rakeing hay. They don't care if the valve is positioned a few thousandths high or low, just so that it seals properly. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 4:41pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 5:11pm
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so now you want to try and backpedal on something else, the village idiot posts again.
Average items sell, ever notice that?
Exceptional items only appeal to a verry small market. That cylinder head made pankey so jelous a year agoe that he offered me $200 to see it. Rember. Weather I sell it or not makes no difference to me.
Why did I sell a bunch of average items? There's a market for them. That's why pankey can sell his things, they appeal to the average market place.
Like I've posted in the past, your a$$ kicking will continue untill your IQ improves.
Pank, go read other threads, people are all posting the same things. Don't show any more stupidity or ignorance and take a break from posting. Spend some time in the gym, by the looks of your Christmas pics on YT you could use some excercise, you'll live a lot longer.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 5:55pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 7:06pm
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Remember this from the beginning of the thread? Short answer: If the tractor was running well, not smoking when it started acting up, then it probably doesn't need valve work. If he's taking it to the machine shop to have the sparkplug removed ask the machinist to look it over. It's obvious the man doesn't have the expertese dispayed by those replying, I don't either. I enjoyed the long answer to a point, lots of good info but there isn't really a need to get so personal. ------------- AGCO My Allis Gleaner Company |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2012 at 8:02pm
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I'm now a wormey fella. I've had polmolive hands, been a 40 yr old machinest, been a 20 yr old kid, even been told I was to broke to have a couple hundred bucks to fix my tractor. All made up by the same idiot in a desperate attempt for attention makes up whatever he can.
I suppose some of the parts laying around for the superstock are all a lie also.
Please go answer Rod B's question in the crossbreading thread....... you stumbled around it and then several others started picking on you pankey. Maybe adress a few of Dave's questions here. Just try to keep your lies straight or get a new tinfoil hat and try to avoid all the conspiricys going on here between the forum members.
I know you will read this post pankey, it'll get quoted and replied to I'm certain. But before you make a fool of yourself any more, go read what the other fella's have to say about you in the crossbreading thread.
Life is tough, it's tougher when you're stupid.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 11:04am
I'm starting to wonder if I have a WD or a WD-45 as well. It definitely has WD-45 decals, which look original, but I'll have to check serial numbers once I am back with the tractor. Luckily, the head gasket set I'm getting will fit both the WD and WD-45 engines. I've also read that the magneto was optional equipment on the WD-45, so I'm not sure if this is definitive on whether it is a WD or WD-45. Thanks for the tip! |
Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 11:16am
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Update: The machine shop cleaned and tested the head, and the valves are in great shape (which is amazing considering that it hasn't been overhauled to my knowledge in the past 30-40 years). The broken spark plug and two manifold bolts were drilled out, and the total bill is $80. Not bad for piece of mind, but that was one expensive and time consuming broken spark plug. I plan to reinstall the head this weekend. I don't have a shop manual and can't get one in time. Can anyone help me out with the proper torque for the head bolts and torquing sequence for a WD-45? As Brian G. NY pointed out, despite what the original looking decals say, I might have a WD. Are the torque specifications different for the WD? I did notice that the spark plug gap is different for the WD and WD-45. I plan to have both sets with me just in case I actually have a WD on my hands. Thanks again for your help. I hope to have the tractor running again by the end of the weekend, after a much needed tuneup!
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 11:36am
The serial number won't tell you if the engine has been changed or if the internals have been changed. The basic difference in the WD and the 45 is the stroke and a WD block has a plate covering the push rods. That plate is behind the mag and has the oil filter housing bolted to it. WD stroke is 4 inches and the 45 is 4.5 inches. The difference in spark plug gap would probably be related to whether it had a mag(WD) or a distributor(45). Make sure you don't have resistor wires or plugs with the Magneto. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 12:21pm
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If i remember correctly its 90 lbs on the 1/2 inch and 55 on the smaller bolts . without the manual in front of me . start with the center bolts and work your way to the ends ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 1:32pm
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Oscar,
I can't remember whether or not the head thickness has been talked about in this thread, but the early WD head is 3" thick (casting number U 3001) and the later WD and the WD-45 heads are 4" thick (casting #AM3820).
The thicker head was introduced on the WD with Engine #289000 sometime in mid 1951.
I don't think, from what I've heard from the more knowledgable guys on this site, there is much difference in performance between the two.
I only mention this because if your head is 3" thick, it would be just one more indication that you probably have a 201 WD engine.
You've certainly elicited a lot of discussion with your inquiry!
I had to look up the torque values as my memory ain't that good.
According to the manual 90 lbs. on the large bolts and 25 lbs. on the 3/8" Bolts.
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Posted By: JeffMOnt
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 2:56pm
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This is what my manual states. Tighten models WC, WD, WD45 and WF 1/2 inch studs to 70 foot pounds and 3/8 inch studs to 2S foot pounds torque. Not sure why there is a difference in the manuals.
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Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 7:13pm
| My D-17 Manual says 90-95 lbs on the 1/2" head bolts. |
Posted By: JeffMOnt
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 8:33pm
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The specs I got were from the wd-45 manual I have. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 10:28pm
| The D17 has stouter bolts.My original WDservice manual says 65ft/lb and 25. The bolts in my 45 only had 2 with marks on the head( GR 5).The rest were plain so I wouldn't bet that they would take 90 ft/lb. Just be sure to get it good and warmed up for say an hour or so then let it cool over night and retorque cold,then set the valves @.015 cold and button it up. You may find you can't get a torque wrench on water manifold and if they are fine thd the true tq value would be different but don't let it get to ya.Just use an end wrench and pull "bout so much". |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2012 at 1:46pm
My original Torque values (90 lbs and 25 lbs)  were taken from this manual.
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Posted By: BurtIA
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2012 at 7:36pm
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You asked a short question but I didn't see any short answers. Short answer, get the broken spark out, put it back together, tune it up and go.
This thread was kinda like asking "what time is it?" and someone explains how the watch works. ------------- Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid! John Wayne |
Posted By: JeffMOnt
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2012 at 7:55pm
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The one I have is the I&T shop manual for B, Rc, Wd45 Diesel, C, Wc, Ca, Wd, Wf, G Wd45 models. |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2012 at 8:00pm
| Amen Burt!!!!! |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2012 at 9:08pm
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Dave, Funny you mentioned that explanation about lapping in the valves, and in about 2 hours have the head ready to go. That's exactly what I did to my WC's cylinder head this past summer. I re-installed the cylinder head, stuck the Mag in and set the Mag timing, but never got to fire the engine because we sold the house, and it continued to rain, and had to move everything. I just fired the WC's engine tonight since I assembled the top half last summer, and it fired right up and ran pretty smoothly even in the cold weather. I didn't run it to long because there wasn't much coolant in the system yet, but for a "quicky" lap job and a freshing up, it worked out quite nicely. No smoke either. Now my B was another story. I had to install new seats, valves, n' guides. That cylinder head was hurtin'..... LOL! Steve@B&B |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 11:42pm
| You won't find valve-lapping procedures in the owner's manual of a modern car, truck, or tractor, Steve... but it was a standard maintenance routine for machines back then. First time I ever did it, was on a 3.5hp Briggs lawnmower engine when I was 11. Darned thing wouldn't run worth crap, so a neighbor gave it to me to mess with. After wrenching on it for a while, my Dad (who isn't by any measure a mechanic, but did restore Model A Fords) told me to try lapping the valves... and so I grabbed his MAF book, read the procedure, and figured out how to get the spring keepers out (used a pair of screwdrivers), lapped 'em, and put it back together, and she started right up after that. Made good money mowing lawns with that old mower... |
Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 8:16am
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Can't figure out how to delete this entry- but see my intended post below. |
Posted By: oscarjwm
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2012 at 8:18am
That ended up being the short answer. $80 dollars from the machine shop to drill out 2 broken exhaust manifold studs, drill out the spark plug, clean the head and check the valves. I installed a new water pump, new fan belt, installed the head, set the valves at 0.015 (cold), and then spent the next several hours trying to figure out why it was only hitting on 3 cylinders.
Turns out that sometime in the last couple years while the tractor was down, I had removed the spark plug wires and reversed the #1 and #2 wire (I was too excited to start it up so I had put off putting on new wires until it was running). I put on new plug wires, took off the magneto cap and centered the flywheel at the "F" position through he inspection plate, set the magneto rotor on the timing lug on the magneto cap... and she fired right up! She is running smoother that she has in years. I reset the valves hot to 0.012, retorqued the head bolts, and look forward to doing some brushogging and log-pulling this summer. Thanks to everyone for their advice! |