Allis "C" Engine Seizes, then Re-Starts???
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40753
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Topic: Allis "C" Engine Seizes, then Re-Starts???
Posted By: Blue66
Subject: Allis "C" Engine Seizes, then Re-Starts???
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 2:28pm
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Hello:
I am a new user here and and hoping to get some info on a problem I am having with my 1950 Allis Chalmers "C" tractor with Dearborn Loader.
I recently bought the tractor at scrap price in decent, but non running condition. The motor was stuck, but came loose very easily with mystery oil and rocking the tractor in gear by hand. The previous owner said the engine had a noise in it occasionally.
I was able to start the engine but the timing seemed way off, so instead of pushing it, I dropped the pan and distributor to look at the timing gears. All looked real good, including the rod and crank bearings and the cam. I re- assembled and set the timing and the engine runs good, except for a slight miss-fire under a load.
Today, while running the engine at a moderate load at about half throttle, it started lugging hard and siezed up within a matter of about 10 seconds. After checking the fluids and temp, both were normal, I hit the starter and it fired up and ran normal, with good oil pressure. When running under load again, the same thing happened, and again it started up. It will run on a light or no load all day and idle nice too, but within a couple minutes under load it siezes. I kind of makes a low "grinding" noise and vibration as it siezes. The temp and oil pressure always remain normal. Can anyone help me with this?
Thanks so much!
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Replies:
Posted By: Bull
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 2:38pm
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Is the grinding in the engine? Since the engine runs fine without load it sounds like you may have a drive train problem.
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Posted By: Blue66
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 3:04pm
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Yes, I had the clutch in the first time when it seized. It has nothing to do with the tranny.
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Posted By: Tedin NE-OH
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 3:08pm
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Perhaps it is not seizing up ,just starving for gas. Check tank and fuel line for obstructions. Been there.
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Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 3:10pm
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Gotta go with Ted sounds like gas or carb.
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Posted By: wfmurray
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 3:12pm
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TRy a can of lucus in it Not that expenvise and it want hurt it
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Posted By: Blue66
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 4:23pm
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Not starving for gas either, i have tried choking it while it is sieizing, and it will blow black smoke out of the muffler. And it does not roll to a stop, it is sudden.
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Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 4:37pm
Check the gonvenor.
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Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 5:05pm
Crusty cooling system letting a piston overheat?
Gerald J.
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Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 5:13pm
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Makes me wonder if it might be a valve train problem. My C had a badly bent pushrod causing a miss. Could also be a valve not seating, but you should have a little blow-back if that was the case. It can't be metal-to-metal seizing (of the pistons/reciprocating assembly)if it starts right back up. Might want to shine a light up into the clutch housing from the access hole. Could be something on the clutch,pressure plate, or throwout bearing. If it is grinding and vibrating, it could be something coming loose in there.
Did you say it had a FEL? Where's the pump? If it's running from the front pulley, could be something locking up in the pump. Might try taking it off and see if that clears it up. Just some thoughts.
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I didn't do it! It was a short, fat, tall, skinny guy that looked like me!
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Posted By: B26240
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 6:05pm
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Gerald has a good point about piston, also take rocker cover off and see if oil is getting up there while engine is running.
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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 6:23pm
Sounds like not not enough piston to bore clearance or like Gerald says, a bunch of dirt build up in the block and a sleeve(s) are getting too hot and sticking the engine. My D17D did that once before I realized it had more fuel than oil in the crankcase. I scuffed #3 pretty good. When I tore it down to overhaul, the oil ring and 1 compression ring were broken.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 8:28pm
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If it has a mag check the impulse. My C had one of the little impulse dog springs break and lock up the mag. It even did me the nice favor of shearing a couple of teeth off of the gov.
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Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 8:39pm
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I don't want to be a bad news bear, but not cleaning out the rings, and just "unsticking" a stuck motor is more than likely the problem, and what you have is lack of clearance in the rings, and more so now you may have scored pistons.
I really hope this is not it, and it very well could be something else, but I have never been a fan of not pulling the pistons after an engine has been stuck, all that rust, and other stuff, has to go somewhere.
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Still in use:
HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060
Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7
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Posted By: Blue66
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 9:48pm
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The cylinders looked fine when I looked in them with a scope. It was sitting inside too, not loaded up with rain. The rockers are getting plenty of oil, and I "spun" the push rods and checked for clearance when cold. I will look in the clutch housing, and yes the hydraulic pump is off the crank pulley. Thanks so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it. Also wondering if this problem is linked to the cylinder mis-fire when under load. It will idle on all 4, but only on 3 when under load. All new electrical, plugs, coil, wires, points and condensor.
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Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 12:43am
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A friend of mine has a C that does the same thing. Been using it for years that way, like 15. I told him to run it till it won't go no more then it will be easy to see whats wrong. Has a Woods mower. Mowing the lawn it works fine. Go out in the bush and really make the governor work and it will start knocking for a few seconds and come to a halt. Let it sit a minute or so and it fires right back up. In the early years he spent hours checking and measuring things. Nothing seemed out of place. Maybe now years later their might be some more clues if a guy would open the pan up again.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 5:01am
It has a message for you. Its saying, "I HURT!"
Besides the crud making rings tight in a cylinder like crud behind the rings and along side keeping them from flexing as the piston goes up and down in the worn barrel shaped bore, I think you could have another problem.
In forcing a stuck engine you can have bent a rod or two. Forces can be a lot more than the push of the power stroke that the rod is designed to handle. The bend is probably perpendicular to the bores of the rod because the I beam rod is weaker in that direction. That's putting the piston in a bind in the cylinder and the rod bearing in a bind on the journal. Both heat up more when you load the engine than when idling and the piston gets tight in the bore causing the engine the screech to a halt. It runs again after its cooled down. Aluminum pistons grow faster than steel cylinders when heated.
If you keep running it with the bent rod (or rods since rocking back and forth you pushed on all four) it will have one more message for you, "I QUIT" which will be identified by part of a broken rod poking a new access hole in the side of the block or pan.
The only way to be sure no rod is bent is to take the engine fully apart and take the piston rods out of the pistons and then acquire a chunk of rod the size of the crank journal, or better the crank bore in the rod, then using the piston pin as the other rod, using a long micrometer or precise dial caliper checking that those two rods are parallel. Then its a good time to take the rings off the pistons so you can clean behind the rings, and measure the wear of the cylinder bore. You may find you need rings as one is broken and trying to roll over when hot, that the pistons are worn so the rings rattle and that you had to ream a large ridge out of the cylinder to get the rings up out of the cylinder. Then its probably time for a kit of pistons, rings, and sleeves. And straight rods along with rod and main bearings.
Another possibility is that the oil passage through the crank is plugged and a cylinder is not being lubricated by spray from the rod bearing or sometimes there's a hole in the rod to squirt oil up a cylinder. So that one runs hotter.
Still its saying, "I HURT" and if you keep running it without responding to that message it will say, "I QUIT" in a most destructive manner.
Gerald J.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 6:24am
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No need to worry about the crankshaft passages being plugged on a C because there ain't any. Dry tight bearings can kinda act that way. If that is the problem when you shut off the engine it would stop sudden. At the very least I would remove the pan and each bearing cap to check each bearing insert. Do one at a time taking care to keep shims in the same location as they came out. If you have a bearing problem it will show on the insert in the cap. Look real close at the sludge in the bottom of the pan as well. Unless you have a broken ring I would doubt very much that a piston is causing that type of problem if it didn't have an engine kit installed with very few hours.
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 8:00am
If there's a hydraulic pump up front powering the loader off the crank, before I would condemn the engine with a piston problem, I would see if that hydro pump is what's seizing under load and stopping the engine. If the engine starts right back up again right after this occurs, I doubt very much that it would be an internal engine problem, unless you're waiting an hour or so to start it up again. If that's the case, then maybe, it could be an internal problem, but if it starts right back up after it does that, I don't think its an engine problem. Sounds more like a drivetrain problem somewhere either clutch/PTO or that hydro pump. I work with Hydraulics all day long on bucket trucks, and hydraulics can do some goofy things, especially when it comes to pumps. Pump clearance isn't correct, it can stop a large Diesel engine without a problem... JMO
Steve@B&B
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 8:03am
Forgot to add: Remove the pump from the crank and see if it does the same thing. If the engine runs fine at all rpms, you've found the culprit! Time for a new hydro pump.
Steve
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Posted By: TedBuiskerN.IL.
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 8:42am
I had the same problem with an RC. Would run fine until you worked it, then would seize up. What I found was a build up of sludge in the cooling jacket behind and around the third and fourth piston sleeve that would not allow coolant to cool those two cylinders. Mine had the old cast iron pistons yet, and the heat would seize them up. Cleaned out the water jacket by pulling the sleeves and problem solved. I just put a kit in the motor, new sleeves and pistons.
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Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 8:54am
Blue, most of the guys have given you some good ideads.. Just to add to what Dick said about the oil system, you should know your motor is not like an auto with a pressurized system to the bearings. There is an internal pump that pumps pressure down a hollow CAM shaft. The shaft has holes in it an sprays at the crank and piston bearings so there os no positive lube to the bearings. A couple thousands of crud under a bearing and it will "stick". No pressure to flush it out. The pressure you see on your gague is the pump output to the filter. The filter cleans 15% of the oil and dumps it back to sump. The other 85% goes thru the cam and sprays at the bearings. With the valve cover off, you can see if your getting oil to the top end. Pressure on the gauge sometimes dont tell the whole story.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Blue66
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 9:20am
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Thanks again guys for all the replys and ideas, it is very much appreciated. I will un hook the hydraulic pump today and run it. I really dont think it is rusty rings or cylinders, this is not my first old tractor I have worked on, and I am aware of forcing a engine free and starting it. The engine was full of clean antifreeze when I drained it, but I would not rule out a hot spot in the engine. I have a B with a good engine that in worst case I was going to swap the engine out to use in the C, since the B has a cracked transmission, and the C is a fully functional tractor with a loader. But the engine in the C seems fine except for the problem discussed above. It idles like a clock, the oil gauge is almost pegged, and the temp never goes above 125. I know that the oil does not pass through the crank to the bearings, like the old 216 Chevy engines. I will keep you guys updated, and thanks so much for the help.
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