Vaccuum thing on a B manifold??
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40213
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Topic: Vaccuum thing on a B manifold??
Posted By: MNLonnie
Subject: Vaccuum thing on a B manifold??
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:07pm
Is this for using the motor as a vaccuum pump?
 ------------- Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker |
Replies:
Posted By: R.W
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:14pm
| Fresh air inlet for better hot starting? |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:20pm
| It was used to run the milker when the power was out at our place in the late 1940's |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:21pm
| My dad said some tractors could run various things like cow milking equipment by using the engine vacuum. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 6:28pm
| R W, Could you tell me how that works to open it to help start a tractor? |
Posted By: R.W
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 7:05pm
"On hand crank tractor's that don't like to start when hot". Some say that they don't like to start because of fumes that build up in the manifold causing the air-fuel mix to be too rich. The idea is that the valve can be opened to let fresh air into the manifold and flush out the rich mixture, thus letting the tractor start better. Not shure if it works but would be worth a try if you were having hot start problems.
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Dick L wrote:Posted By: norm[ind]
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 7:11pm
| was installed on power units for hot starting like on combine usage was told this by an a-c blockman they would like vapor lock he said it worked wonders too my 2 cents |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 7:37pm
| Dicks got it right. I milked many a cow one unit at a time off our WD and also off our 1960 GMC pickup that had a V6. But our petcocks had a longer nipple to hook the cacuum hose to. So maybe this one was cut off or indeed used for something else as suggested. |
Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 8:10pm
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DeLaval made a Vacuum operated timer that you connected to the tractor battery and a pet cock for vacuum. You hooked up the tractor to the milking system The timer operated the magnetic pulsators. The intake manifold provided Vacuum for milking when the power was out. ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 8:15pm
| We had a C that had the petcock on its manifold. I remember using it a couple of times for milking when the power was out. You need to tie the hose to your main vacuum system in order to have a reservoir. This was eons ago when a larger farm back in Wisconsin consisted of 50 cows. |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 10:51pm
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Try running a B with that petcock open. The Brass Cock in the picture is called a engine ventilating cock in parts books and service manuals. Its purpose was to dry out a flooded hot hard to crank engine. Open it up on a running engine and the engine sputters and dies for lack of vaccume. And. You better have it closed when you try to actually crank to start it.
When the power went out and the milking machines quit at Uncle Leroy's Dairy it was all hands on deck to milk em by hand till the power came back or sombody showed up with a generator. He farmed wth Farmalls so he didn't have the luxury of being saved by a B with a manifold cock that he couldn't connect a vacuume line too. Show me how to connect a vacuume line to the cock in the picrure and I may actually start to believe all the milked the cows with my B stories.
Remember. The Question was " Is this for useing the motor as a vaccume pump? I believe the answer is NO. Simple as that.
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Posted By: 1946WP
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2011 at 10:57pm
| I HAD A 60 COMBINE WITH ONE OF THEM ON IT & IF YOU KILLED IT WHEN HOT, JUST OPEN THE PETCOCK & IT WOULD FIRE RIGHT UP. IF YOU DIDN'T OPEN IT YOU COULD CRANK & CRANK. IT WOULD FLOOD IF NOT OPEN. |
Posted By: Bill Long
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 1:59am
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Yes, the petcock was mounted on the power units. It enabled the engine to be started easy when hot. Worked too. Yes, it can be used to provide vacuum for milking machines. However, we used the WC or larger engines and we put on a petcock with a tapered tube so it could be easily hooked up to a tube for milking machine use. I can't remember trying it on a B. Guess it would work. Good Luck! Bill Long Good Luck! Bill Long |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 4:19am
| I have one FS if anyone needs one. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 7:46am
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There's a petcock screwed into the manifold on my early handbrake C model. Strange lookin' little bugger. I remember this subject coming up a couple years ago on the forum and was discussed about its functions. Still the same answers....
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
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Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 8:11am
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We ran a WC for many years on a reuse pit well, and we had a valve similar to that one installed in the manifold, and use the manifold vaccumm to prime the suction line. Start the tractor, open the valves, watch the sight glass, which had a float valve in it to block water from going to the engine, and (it's been a loong time, so it may have taken longer, or not as much) but in about 5 minutes your pump was primed, close the vaccumm, and engage the PTO. The total length of suction line was around 20 feet, and the diameter was 6", so we aren't talking 500CFM flowing bypassing the carb, but maybe more like .785cfm if I did my math right. That will not flow enough air to lean the mixture much at all. ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 8:39am
The correct answer is No. If you wanted to use the tractor to milk cows or for some other vacuum purpose, you would need a tapered nipple or hose barb on the end of that valve to shove a hose on to. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 8:47am
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I had a guy come once to pump our septic tank. He had a sealed tank on his truck and used the truck engine to supply vacuum to the tank. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 8:57am
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Yup, you can milk with it as we used to run a single Surge milking machine on one when the power would be lost in an ice storm.
My dad has told of opening the barn doors for fresh air and running three WD-45's staggered down the barn floor for milking on their large dairy during upstate NY ice storms in the late 50's.
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:05am
How do you hook it up? All the ones I have seen used for milking, had a hose barb sticking out. This one isn't cut off, it was made that way. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:18am
| Charlie, ours looked like an early version of the Surge petcocks we used on our 2" vacuum line above the cows during the 60s/70s. Had a nipple in it and the vacuum hose from the standard surge milking machine slid right onto it. Never cared for the fumes as we had to run the tractor at a high idle and I can only imagine running three WD-45s doing it, but grandpas barn was huge (very high ceilings) and they had to do something as they shipped two ton a day (in cans!) back in 56/57. |
Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:24am
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Let's clear up some confussion. I think that the one in the picture, is designed for and made to clear a hot flooded engine, and what the rest of us are talking about is that with the right valve, i.e. something with a nipple or other fitting, you can use the manifold vaccumm for other things. I don't think that any of us are stating that that specific valve is only used for vaccumm work. I think some of those posting took the question very literal, as they should, i.e. that specific valve, some of us, myself included, thought the question was more a theory question. My mistake. ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: RichinWis
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:25am
| Well, if you did want to use it for emergency vacuum all you had to do was change the petcock, and yes they did work for that of course you need ed to keep the hose on going to the pulsator on the milker. Believe me my Dad and my grandfather both milked cows when the power was out with the C tractor. As a young guy I thought it was quite amazing, but fact is fact, although I am sure that Allis didn't quite have that in mind when they installed the short ones, it's just that farmers have always been known for being very inventive. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:33am
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I have WW2 vintage generator and it has such a petcock on the intake manifold. Its hand crank start with a 10 hp 4 cylinder Herculese engine on a 3 KW generator. There it was used to prime the engine when choking and hand cranking didn't work in cold weather. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 9:54am
Exactly correct, this petcock was for the ventilating, If you look to the left of the petcock in the picture you will see a pipe plug screwed into the manifold, this is where you would attach the smalled diameter petcock to run the vaccuum opperated equipment. ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 10:06am
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We had a hand-crank B that we used the petcock to get it started when hot. Worked like a charm. Kind of an anti-choke. ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 12:12pm
| Mine came with the type of valve that attached to a vacuum hose. It is also a handy place to squirt some either when cold. |
Posted By: KGood
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 1:04pm
| I've seen a hercules that had a bellows type throttle with a petcock to adjust RPM. It used that hole in the manifold for vaccuum and it also acted like a govenor and it recovered pretty good from a load. It was on a welder |
Posted By: JR Maley
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 1:14pm
| I could really use one of those. My '38 hand crank-only is impossible to start warm. I have to make sure to park at the top of a hill if I have any chance of starting it warm. It really stinks when you run out of hill though. |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 6:55pm
Heres one on a tractor my grandpa used to have....
  I was told the same thing....vaccuum hose for milking. ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: KGood
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 6:48am
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That one has a plug and a petcock. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 10:14am
| The manifold was designed and cast for the port just above the carb. You gotta wonder about the story behind the story there.I'd bet the original design didn't have provision for that port. So how did someone using this engine figure out hard starting hot would be alieveated by putting a hole in the manifold. |
Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 10:49am
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Dad's C has the same valve as the one in your photo, but I know this manifold came off a hand crank power unit that was on a baler. My C with original manifold has the smaller petcock with a spring loaded handle and the small hole is tapped for what looks like 1/4" pipe thread where a hose barb adaptor could be installed. Two different valves for different reasons. Kip ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 10:51am
R and D, Steve, research and development.
My guess is that after much testing, engineers found that this would fix the problem. ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 3:07pm
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Yeah Don,but think about it....."We can't get this thing started when hot( like after killing it).We 've tried different jetting etc,etc,then what happened? Ol Bubu hollers across the drive and says "Why don't ya drill a big hole in the manifold? Bet that'll make er start hot!" Don't you think the fix was a rather "off the wall" idea for a solution for the problem?
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Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2011 at 6:30pm
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I agree, it is an off the wall solution.
However, working in our own engineering test lab at work, we try to seek every possible failure mode we can. Meaning, we try to destroy our product, to simulate what an actual customer might do.
I could see 2 options on this. Either they tested the heck out of that engine in the lab, (continous run time on engine or stop and start) and figured out they had a problem. Or its possible they had complaints once those B and C tractors were out of the production facility and on a farm working.
It would be easy to change the mold for the cast manifold, if they needed to make that change for the problem at hand.
Someone had there thinking cap on when they figured that colder ambient air, could cure vapor lock/or a hot motor. Again, I agree it was an off the wall solution. But sometimes, that is the best solution. ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2011 at 12:01am
| I'm often intrigued with how or why things are/were made the way the were. I've seen a lot of dumb ways of doing things and wondered if it was by accident or design. I think there are many engineers who are book smart but but lack common sense. |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2011 at 4:45am
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Sometimes things in companies, are driven by cost. (Unlike NASA)
I know we are pushed to come up with cost saving ideas, during the poor economy.
Its possible, that was the cheapest fix, keeping the piece price down for AC. ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |