Erratic engine firing wd 45
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38025
Printed Date: 11 Sep 2025 at 11:00am
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Topic: Erratic engine firing wd 45
Posted By: frarob16
Subject: Erratic engine firing wd 45
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2011 at 10:09pm
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Sat in a pasture for 3yrs. I do not know who the previous owner was except the person who gave it to me. Starts easy, while I have never had to hand crank anything I think it would start. My problem is every 5 to 30 seconds it pops through the exhaust. Tonight I drove it home in the dark and did not notice any spark jumping. It is converted 12 volt, new wire harness, new coil and plugs and condenser, cap and rotor. Plug wires were slightly chewed on by pack rats hence the 12 volt conversion. Back to the miss fire. No spark jump in the night but misses every 5 to 30 seconds and pops and I can see fire out of the exhaust. Sticking exhaust valve? Timing off? Maybe a carb issue and I say that because pulling chock rod out doesn't seem to drastically change things. To me it seems to be running rich. But it does start, idle and run like a sewing machine except for this occasional miss.
Thanks, Butch
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Replies:
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 1:10am
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Running rich might do that getting unburned fuel accumulated in the exhaust manifold. Irregular running can come from timing changes of the distributor shaft top bushing being badly worn letting the shaft wobble. A timing light may show that. Check all four plugs. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 1:11am
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Running lean will let it pop in the exhaust too when it misfires and gathers fuel in the exhaust manifold. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 5:35am
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Here's what happened to me back when I was young and unlearned. I overhauled Dad's WD that had been sitting for over 10 years. No book. Virtually no knowledge. I had centered the wrist pins to the pistons before installing. After it would warm up it would pop through the exhaust erratically. You can guess what was wrong. After the piston and wrist pin warmed up 2 of the wrist pins would rub on the cylinder liner and get red hot. After checking valves and ignition etc etc I finally took the oil pan off to see the scored cylinders. I always figured that caused my problems. Bought a book after that. Young and dumb. Not saying that is what is wrong with your tractor, just sharing one of my early experiences. Dad's C has always popped through the exhaust about like you say. I figure it's a worn distributor shaft but he isn't bothered by it so I've never really taken a look. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: bill(IL)
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 9:17am
| I would guess sticking valves. Will proably clear up after more running. Bill |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 3:39pm
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Thanks for the replies. There is no wobble or side movement in the dist bushing but there is plenty of gear lash it seems to me. I can turn the rotor back and forth maybe 3/16". My problem is I don't even know anyone I can think of that has a timing light. Don't laugh but I'm a city guy who is now rural on a small plot of land. But my trade as a fab/welder/machinist/occasional car mechanic helps me. LOL I do still have my coleman lanturn and camp stove from 40 yrs ago. I did fail to mention that I found #1 cylinder intake manifold bolt loose but nut is siezed and stud is bottomed out. I found a replacement and will see what happens. Thanks everyone.
Butch
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Posted By: R.W
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 3:48pm
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If you think its the timing loosen up the distributor wile the tractor is running and turn it left and right slowley and see if it smooths out. ------------- In Search Of: 1958 Allis Chalmers D17 Diesel serial #9643D |
Posted By: Racn911
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 7:50pm
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Does the exhaust manifold have any cracks? If the intake is not sealed correctly a motor can also pop, or back fire. Keep looking you'll find it. good luck Adam
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Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:11pm
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Hello, Went over tractor to possibly find what was wrong with the misfire. Correct me if I,m wrong but shouldn't the firing order be 1-2-3-4 with the front cylinder toward the radiator be #1? I saw this information somewhere in my manuals but can't find it. Before I try changing plug wires around I thought I would ask. Sitting in the garage right now chomp"n at the bit. It is currently wired 1-2-4-3. Please help before I give up on all hope except for a valve job which I can't afford at this time. It's a WD 45 226 ci high octain built in mid 53.
Thanks butch
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Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:15pm
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The firing order is 1 -2 - 4 - 3, this applies to almost all allis 4 cyl gas engines
------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:19pm
| Thanks Orange but it's not what I wanted to hear. Will continue to run it slow. But i did get ahold of a friend who still has a timing light but busy this weekend so it will have to wait. Darn it. |
Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:22pm
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You know my 45, will at idle sit there and pop the rian cap oh at least once every 30 seconds or so, I never really thougt that much about it. Is yours back firing or just a little pop? ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:34pm
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what rpm or rpms are you getting the pop? Is the pop slight or loud? Could it be called a flutter type popping? Some flutter type sounds at low rpms would be normal. Louder pops at a higher rpm would lead me to a compression check for a leaking (non seating) valve. Timing will do it also. Hard to hear sounds thru other peoples ears. (:^D
I call what Orange said a flutter. that is caused by the length of the exhaust tubes in the manifold not being the same. Two long and two short. Uneven back pressure in the manifold.
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Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 7:49pm
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Thanks for the replies guys. It actually does better at idle and just pops the rain cap. At high idle I would say it does the same but louder. I can see flame out of the exhaust. Currently I have it idling in the driveway, maybe double pop now and then and in 25 sec it will single pop. I won't describe it as a backfire. But then again I'm relating this info to cars and motorcycles. It seems to me valve seat or hard carbon deposits on the valves. The only thing I did not change was the dist cap but I was told it was brand new. Only thing left I figure is a carb rebuild, Timing, Dist cap, or worse yet a head job. Unless someone as another idea? will keep you all posted.
Butch
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Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 8:04pm
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If you are getting a loud pop and fire out the muffler, then my first test would be like Dick said, a compression check followed by a leak down test. Those will give you a good idea of the either the valves or the rings. If you get good numbers with this non invasive test, then you can dig deeper into other things. However that being said, I think you idea of chekcing the timing is the first priority. ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 8:31pm
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Thanks about the compression test. Now I have to find someone with a tester. I think the ratio is 6 1/2 to 1 whcih might put it 120 psi range? I also messed with the carb and if it is the Scheblerr ts464, it was getting to dark to check for numbers it states in the manual 1 1/4 turns out on the main. Mine was set at 3 but wasn't really paying attention. I turned in or leaned it out and the popping almost came to a complete stop. I would have left the setting there but was afraid of running it to lean. I still have to replace temp gauge. I do have some time tomorrow morning and make for sure if this carb info is correct with what I have and let it run and check plug color I'll guess and see how it runs under load. It has been taught to me to adjust main, then afterward adjust idle mixture. I am not giving up yet. All opinions welcome. Thanks guys.
Butch
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Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 8:34pm
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Yes Orange , Dick is probley right. I'm just in denial.
Butch
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 8:37pm
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Tthe book settings are not set in concrete, they are just settings where the engine will start and run so you can improve on them. You can check for being too lean by opening the throttle rapidly. If it doesn't speed up smoothly, its too lean. Adjust for the maximum speed for a constant throttle setting which the governor will hide from you. So the alternative is to adjust for the governor closing the throttle the most. Set idle at low speed, main at high speed, go back and forth, they do interact. Then check for transition from idle to full throttle smoothly and richen until it makes that transition to satisfy you. Gerald J. |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 9:01pm
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Thanks Gerald, taken into consideration when I try this tomorrow morning. The Mrs has book club in the morning till we leave for inlaws for fish and game feed. Either way this weekend is looking good and have some good info before I have to have a real tractor mechanic look at it. Nice guy in his 70's but has a wealth of info. Does it for a hobby. I just for the life of me can't figure out where you guys get the time to restore or maintain these tractors. If I came home with another tractor it would be me and it sleeping under a bridge. The Mrs just does not quite understand LOL. Just kidding but I've seen some serious collections since I've joined. Have ya'll a good evening.
Butch
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Posted By: Orange Blood
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 9:07pm
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Don't kid yourself Frarob16, we spend 10x what it takes to fully restore a tractor convincing the mrs. to let us by the next one!! :-)
Good Luck, ------------- Still in use: HD7 WC C CA WD 2-WD45 WD45LP WD45D D14 3-D17 D17LP 2-D19D D19LP 190XTD 190XTLP 720 D21 220 7020 7030 7040 7045 3-7060 Projects: 3-U UC 2-G 2-B 2-C CA 7-WC RC WDLP WF D14 D21 210 7045 N7 |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 6:42pm
| Thank you for being patient with me. Sat morning I tried adjusting carb main and idle adjustments but no real changes in erratic firing. But then it all of a sudden it completely quit. Took #3 and #4 plug wires off and held to valve cover and no spark. What the heck? Returned to original carb settings still no fire or spark. Today I went through it with my voltmeter and everything was as supposed. Pull distributor cap and rotor and found the dust seal had come out and cover the rotor contacts. Cleaned crude off and tried to replace dust cover without the seal fibers coming out. They still did but it fired right up. Should I lube the dist shaft coming up to the rotor and with what? I'm ready to pull this seal and see if it consistently fires. Maybe I could pull this fiber seal and turn it upside down and lube? Any coments welcome. Thanks, Butch |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 7:07pm
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I don't see where you put a new set of points in there. I know it's tough to resist fiddling with the carb when an engine won't run right, especially since there are no screws to turn, but the first plan of attack should always be check the ignition first. Burned points won't properly saturate the coil when they close. Get a high quality of points and condenser like Standard Blue Streak. Seems like our buddy Steve @ B&B out there in Joisy has them. Set the points gap to .020, and plug gaps to .030 and give it another go. You talked about the dist shaft being tight in the bushings but being able to turn the shaft some without turning the engine. Does it spring back? You have a centrifugal advance built in the dist. If it doesn't spring back, I would look for broken springs or sticking advance mechanism. While it is most correct to use a timing light to set engine timing, I have been told by a long time A-C mechanic that you will be very close when you have the engine running at full throttle and close it quickly and you get one loud backfire out the exhaust. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 7:28pm
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Thanks Brian, I was told points, condensor, cap and rotor are 3 yrs old. They look good. I checked gap on everything. I have what I think is the seal on the dust cap, the fibers or seal in the dust cap coming out and covering the rotor contacts if I'm seeing things right. I'm talking about the bottom of the rotor where it makes contact with the dust cover under the rotor. The original mess covered half over the rotor contacts. I appreciate your help. Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't know if that seal is conductive or not. I almost feel foolish for even posting this. Because I do not know how the rotor makes contact with the points.
Thanks Buthh
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Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 7:31pm
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Hey Brian the carb if thats what you refering to has a high and idle mixture screw along witha idle set screw.
Thanks Butch
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Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 8:10pm
| Points plugs cap and condenser that sat out for 3 years in all kinds of weather draw moisture. Check the simple things off the list first. A plugged/lean carb will cause it to shoot fire at high speed. Did you clean the tank, carb, and sediment bowl/shutoff valve? My WD45 draws moisture and is very picky about fresh gas. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 8:32pm
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The dust cover touching the bottom of the rotor shouldn't be a problem. The rotor gets it's power in the center contact and transfers it to the end contact. as long as nothing interferes with these you should be OK. If 2 & 3 are not firing, it doesn't have anything to do with the carb, it is all in the distributor, bad wires, or bad plugs. Could also be points. Bob |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 9:15pm
| calmers bob hello. i guess the point I was trying to make wasw hat is in question is the at the bottom of the rotor could not make contact to #3 and #4 contacts on the bottom of the rotor because of this fibrous materail coming out of the center of the dust shield. It completely covered a 1/3 of the rotor contact area. pulling it and cleaning and sticking the fibers back into the dust cover it fired right up. but it still missed like it always had and when to pulled the rotor again the seal under the rotor was covering the contact area between rotor and dust cover. If I'm not mistaken those contacts on the top of the dust cover (star Shaped should make contact with the bottom rotor tab. Also I have already checked the above posts. The only fuel problem I had was the previous owner relined the tank and I was getting residue from that in the fuel blow. New pliug, points both gapped. Dist cap and plug wires look good but? Rewiwered 12 volt. Used volt meter to confirm new switchs are working. I wish I could show you this dust seal in the dust cover that I'm talking about Butch |
Posted By: Flint23
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 12:54am
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mine has a pop in it every once in awhile but I think it is due to the oil build up in one of the cylinders, builds up enough pressure and pop, I get a puff of smoke when it does this not flame , it does this at idle only. ------------- been there done that, not doing it again... |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 9:01pm
| The dust cover doesn't have contacts that contact the rotor. The shiny material is a snap ring to hold the seal in place.The only rotor contact is at the top and side. Bob |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 10:48pm
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Hey Bob I finally figured that today. chargered batterry and it started like a chanmp. brfore I could react them motor died. Dindn't sputter, run lean or back fire out the exhuast. Just plain quit. pulled plug and pulled back rubber boot hand held to tappet or I'd say valve cover studs. no spark. I got so frustrated I held onto the sparkplug connector and grounded myself. Still no spark. I've been advised to change condenser and points and thats gonna happen soon. I guess it goes to show there is knowbody that knows everthing. Thant was dericted at me. I hate parts changing. Thanks, butch
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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 12:40pm
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I think you're on the right path with points and condenser. Blow out all dust dirt etc with compressed air if you can. I'm not sure why Delco thought there was a need to put a seal on that inner cap. My CA has the seal intact, my Oliver 60 (distributor is the same above the base) the seal is missing. If that seal is dropping fibers onto the points, I'd remove it. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 6:59pm
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thanks Brian. Is there a way to check condensater with volt meter? Things happened so quickly toegether I don't if I have mulitple problems. First step is to get good condenser and points which I did not try. Tried it again this afternoon with orignal setup and still no spark. no spark so I gree with. any differince between a 12 volfy or 6 volt power source hen it comes to selecting condenser for dist?
Thanks for your patience guys,
Butch Roberts
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Posted By: wdforty5
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 7:19pm
| I would say not. My wd has the 12 volt setup and I put new points,condensor, cap,rotor simply off of the year and make when I ordered. Put it all together, set the point gap at .020 and she fired on the first rotation. I can hand crank start it now if needed. |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:07pm
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Tnanks wd45. At first it started so fast I thought I could hand crank it still was missing and popping through exhaust low end seemed to be accepiticle but high end was every 15-20sec. So I started it up last firday evening thinking it was running rich. Choke rod has no real notiable effect on the engine. So I lean main idle in. And it quits. No bluberring backfire, popping or anything. So I check for spark and there is none. I pulled the boot covers back on those plugs and grabbed one end and grounded myself with no shock. Must be condenser becauce it has a new 12 voltcoil new plugs gapped at recommendation .Plug wires might be a concern but the packs rats chewwed on them a little but i do not see any spark jumping in the nignt between wire. I do know for a fact that coil is getting 12 volts to positive side of coil, new coil with internal resistore. New wirihg, 3 way starter switch. elimated the 3 position light/generator boast switch.
My ampmeter is deadbut the only ciircuit that comes out it the one that monitors charging amps.. please any answers to my post will ne responded to as quick as possible
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:25pm
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If the ignition 12 volts came off the load side of the ammeter like it should, you could tell much about the ignition system. As you crank slowly you should see the coil take current and then cut off. If you have 12 volts to the coil but no spark, you have either an open between the coil and the points or a shorted wire in that part of the circuit or a shorted condenser (which will show with an ohmmeter) or points that aren't closing. Points don't close because they are burned to a crisp, or the pivot has rusted fast, or they are set wrong. A voltmeter or a test light across the points should show 12 volts and zero alternately as you crank the motor. It won't run with a test light across the points but that's a good test of the points and condenser. If you don't get a light across the points at any time, the points aren't opening, a wire has been pinched, or the condenser is shorted. Rarely a coil can short to ground too. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 9:58pm
------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
frarob16 wrote:Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 10:26pm
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Don't know if this helps. I was plowing with my WD a couple weeks ago. The tractor ran fine with no load on it. When I put the plow in the ground, and started plowing it missed terribly. I was puzzled. We changed the points and condenser, because the points looked burned a bit. After we put in the new points and condenser, it still missed under load! It ended up that the spark plug wires were not pushed in the distibuter cap all the way. After I found that and pushed them in good, it ran like a top. What spark plug wires and plugs are you using?
If you find out what is the problem, be sure to post it for us. This is most puzzling. Pastor Mike ------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa, |
Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 10:29pm
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Another thought. I once had a loose wire that runs from the coil to the distributer. It would run and pop once in a while. Then it would run and quit. Ended up the nut that held the wire from the coil to the distributer was not tight. After I tightened it it ran good. Also I had WC with short in the mag ground wire that would run for a bit then start missing then run ok...
Pastor Mike ------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa, |
Posted By: frarob16
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 12:20pm
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Thanks guys. Will change condenser and points this weekend. I have a digital voltmeter but I don't have a analog meter so I'm going to start parts changing and see what happens. Probley include plug wires, cap and rotor.
Butch
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