Hardened bolts
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=204986
Printed Date: 02 May 2025 at 10:21pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hardened bolts
Posted By: AC720Man
Subject: Hardened bolts
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 2:48am
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I have a bolt broken off at my front weight bracket on my 160 that I am trying to remove. No luck with standard drill bits. Tried a carbide bit, it began to bite but stopped drilling about an 1/8” in. Assuming it lost its edge, brand new bit. I saw a video that the gentleman used a glass cutting bit to drill through a bolt on a JD tractor he was working on. Anyone have any experience with these or advise on what type of bit to use? If I can drill it out in steps I should be able to put a bolt through the frame rail with a nut on it instead of threading it. It’s a tight area but room for a nut on the back side. I rarely have any luck with easy outs. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Replies:
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 4:50am
Best way to get it out would be to mig weld a nut to the busted off stud, and turn out all of it. The heat generated usually loosens the locked threads... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 7:35am
| I'd try a Hanson left hand bit |
Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 7:38am
X2 |
DiyDave wrote:Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 8:31am
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I would love to take credit for this, but I actually got the idea from DrAllis. Instead of welding a nut, first weld a washer (with a smaller inner diameter than the bolt), then weld a nut.
It works better than just welding a nut. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 8:46am
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Not sure I can weld a nut, had thought about it but the bolt broke off just inside the frame so very little room for a nut and to be able to turn it. 9/16” bolt so I would probably have to step down to a 3/8” nut. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 9:23am
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Just an idea, but you might want to try welding a small nut, let it cool, then weld a bigger nut (two heat cycles). Before you try to turn it out after welding a nut, crack it with a small sledge a few times. I'm getting pretty good at getting broken off bolts out. It's not because of my knowledge. It's because I have made just about every mistake possible!
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 9:30am
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Rob, Threaded frame rail bolts I used to just take a torch with a fine tip and burn the bolt out without making to much of a mess. I would then drill the hole out to get rid of any slag and make the hole nice and round again and then install a bolt with a nut and lock washer on the inside. If you take your time, you won't make a mess. Torch tip has to be in good shape too! HTH. Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 11:26am
| is it broke off in cast iron ? if yes slobberit out with the torch if not sharpen a drill bit at a little differant angle and drill till it quits and change to a drill bit that is sharpened to the proper angle if you center punched it you will have to drill past the carbon you brought up . left hand twit will not do any thing unless its loose. their is no one fix for any brocken bolt you just have to attack till somthing works |
Posted By: Model 70
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 12:40pm
| Concrete drill bits work great for drilling out hardened bolts. With a hammer drill ,regular drill will not work. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 4:30pm
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Thanks for the tips. Will give it a try next week some time. Supposed to be blue a$$ cold next week so I may have to wait a week. Single digit temps tend to keep me inside lol. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 6:03pm
| Heat is your best bet- bolts are different material and will melt- then chase out the holes- good to go |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 7:56pm
| I use a stick welder and build it up to where it sticks out of hole. With 6013 it lites good. Blob,chip,blob,chip. When enough sticks out I clamp a vise grip on it and start wiggling with some PB blaster. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2025 at 11:57pm
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I bought this from my best friend, he was second owner, me the 3rd and he said it was broke when he bought it in 1988. So it’s probably rusted in tight. Broke off a 1/4” behind the frame rail which makes this a tuff one to remove. That’s why it’s so difficult to get to. And I cannot access it from the other side enough to attempt to turn it. I would have to weld it on the inside of a nut, probably not enough room around it. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2025 at 9:13pm
| 9/16 is plenty big to build up with weld. Could probably do that with wire welder and keep away from edges. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2025 at 4:49am
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I've heard of using carbon rods to build up worn out drawbar holes, I wonder if you drilled a hole in a carbon rod, then did a build up on the bolt, with the carbon bushing in place, whether that would work on bolt removal? ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2025 at 7:01am
I've gotten quite a few bolts loose with left hand bits but even it if doesn't work still better to be drilling to loosen a bolt left hand than drilling to tighten it right hand
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2025 at 7:50am
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My experience with left hand drill bits is that you can sometimes loosen a bolt that was broken off by overtightening, but if a bolt was rusted and broken off trying to get it out, you may as well save your time using a left-hand drill bit. I never have any luck with easy outs on rusted bolts either. One thing I find works on rusted bolts is hitting the head several times with a small sledge before trying to loosen. In this case, that isn't an option.
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Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2025 at 11:49am
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Something about heating with the welding process gets the heat to the end of the bolt much better than a flame. If and I realize a big IF. If the piece is in a location to where I can build up to a flat washer then a nut, I have gotten it out. Some have taken 5,6, even 7 times, but they came out and left threads that could be cleaned up. It also takes a lot of time to let it cool before trying to turn it out.
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2025 at 2:23pm
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After welding, hold a bees wax candle against the hole, the wax wicks its way in, and lubes the threads... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 7:30am
How many broken off bolts have you had to back out on their own using right hand drill bits? (LOL) Just as easy to use a left hand bit to drill and it works sometimes.
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Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 9:40am
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I've got a partial set of left hand bits I sometimes use in these situations. Something I hit on when first attempting this, we don't really want a sharp cutting edge. I 'dub' that edge so it's basically straight up and down. Takes more force to create the chip this way. More likely to grab and spin out. On another note, I can not imagine a bolt so hard it can't be drilled with a carbide bit. A masonry bit might be a problem but a real carbide bit will drill a grade 10.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 12:49pm
Well sure, carbide will cut anything softer than the carbide and a hard bolt is softer than carbide. You put it in hand held motor drill and that is another set of problems, but it can be done. |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 2:52pm
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Curt I'm with you on the Sledge Hammer bit. Anytime I go to loosen a 50+ year old rusted bolt, whether it be 1/4" or 3/4", the first step is to hit it 2 or 3 good whacks with the appropriate size Sledge. In Robs case I'd use a nice flat end punch just small enough to fit in the hole. I would clamp that punch in a set of Visegrips to protect my hand. Then follow up with the Mig Welder, flat washer, nut etc. G |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2025 at 3:02pm
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Eutectic makes a welding rod specifically for this purpose. HTH Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 7:38pm
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After looking it over again there was no way to weld a washer and nut on it. The bolt is broken off in the nose piece which is slid inside the frame rail. So it is recessed if I’m explaining this correctly. Paid $13 for a carbide 1/4” drill bit made to cut glass. It worked pretty good until it wore the carbide tip down. This bolt is hard! Probably 1/2 the way through. So I will buy a few more of those bits, step up size once I get through. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 8:51pm
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Once you get a hole through it, the heat and wax trick will help, too. How long is the remaining stub? ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 9:51pm
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Add temper = red hot then oil quench. Lessen temper = red hot then air cool. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2025 at 10:10pm
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This is a very difficult area to get to inside the frame rail. I think I could get a nut on a bolt once it was through the frame rail. I’m guessing what is left of the bolt is about an inch long. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2025 at 4:46am
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I would try pipe style easy out, first, with a 3/8 electric impact to drive it. If that don't work, then I'd try spline type easy out, and try to screw it in, rather than out. Once you get it to move a little, go to the spline type, and alternate directions, once its moving, that's half the battle... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: DanielW
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2025 at 10:02am
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Usually drilling a bolt out is the very last option you should try for stuck/seized/broken bolts, because it's so time-consuming (and bit-consuming) and seldom works well. The nut welding trick and/or oodles of heat and spinning with a punch are usually more successful. But it sounds like you have no choice but to drill in your case What I've had luck with in those situations involves heat and an oversized bit to drive in there. Once you drill a decent-sized hole through it, get it red hot so it's soft, and drive something oversized into the hole while it's nice and soft. For smaller fasteners a Torx bit a little larger than the hole works well because the torx bit cuts its own 'teeth' into it and gets lots of grip. For large fasteners a large hex key, or even a socket extension ground flat-ish works. Something that will cut its own grooves/teeth. Then try spinning it out while red hot. If that doesn't work, let it air cool with your torx bit/whatever in there, then heat the surrounding area red hot (properly red hot) and try spinning out. You'd be surprised at how easy they can spin out when it's nice and toasty red, vs. how seized or stiff they still are when it's only a dull/colder red. Whatever you do however, don't try twisting too hard and break off whatever tool you've driven in there. Then you'll have an uber-hard piece of tool steel in there that will be impossible to drill through.
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2025 at 2:37pm
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With the pipe style easy out, to remove if it doesn't work is easy, just reverse the wrench, and it self extracts. If you break it, you can also tap it out with a hammer and punch from the other side, if you have the space. Spline type can also be removed by the same method as above, if you break them, too.
Pipe: https://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-pipe-nipple-extractor-set-93822.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=21901739207&campaignid=21901739207&utm_content=173216762831&adsetid=173216762831&product=93822&store=175&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAneK8BhAVEiwAoy2HYevpgwN0ys9kzoRGJd0c-oa6y9EYeofSINT7A8IKAbh5JkXVOQ5jHRoCTo0QAvD_BwE" rel="nofollow - https://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-pipe-nipple-extractor-set-93822.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=21901739207&campaignid=21901739207&utm_content=173216762831&adsetid=173216762831&product=93822&store=175&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAneK8BhAVEiwAoy2HYevpgwN0ys9kzoRGJd0c-oa6y9EYeofSINT7A8IKAbh5JkXVOQ5jHRoCTo0QAvD_BwE Spline: https://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-35580-Piece-Extractor-Models/dp/B0042TA2HQ/ref=asc_df_B0042TA2HQ?mcid=a7c1fce8b0b8356fbb2d66a020091f9a&hvocijid=4363554072599785927-B0042TA2HQ-&hvexpln=73&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=721245378154&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4363554072599785927&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007869&hvtargid=pla-2281435177858&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-35580-Piece-Extractor-Models/dp/B0042TA2HQ/ref=asc_df_B0042TA2HQ?mcid=a7c1fce8b0b8356fbb2d66a020091f9a&hvocijid=4363554072599785927-B0042TA2HQ-&hvexpln=73&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=721245378154&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4363554072599785927&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007869&hvtargid=pla-2281435177858&psc=1 I don't endorse either product, they were just the first to pop up in Google searches...
------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |