Lime on "HAY" fields ???
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Topic: Lime on "HAY" fields ???
Posted By: Macon Rounds
Subject: Lime on "HAY" fields ???
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 4:16pm
I have had lime professionaly applied by "Grubbs Bro"... over the last 2 years....
Top dress I believe it's called.
Siol test shows PH brought up from low 5's to low 6's
However no significant change in production or visual appearance....
I realize it takes time for lime to leach into the soil but some lime has been on over 2 years.
One farmer suggested plowing and re-seeding... I am approaching some fields in that manner.
It has also been mentioned that top soil/ground is HARD. It has not been tilled for 30+ years... Making lime leach slower.
Looking for ways to upset surface/subsurface ground without destroying all of the sod.
I have a few ideas on how to accomplish this however I always like experiance over experiments....
Thanks in advance
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Replies:
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 4:21pm
Did you also apply fertilizer? Lime by itself isn’t a nutrient so much as it helps the soil chemistry release nutrients. What “hay” crop? Grasses, alfalfa, other legumes? Alfalfa is really picky about pH, and responds to lime pretty good. Grasses, meh. And they all need fertilizer to boost productivity.
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 4:41pm
Aerway aerator, google it. Actually Aerway has the angle wrong on the teeth, needs a lot of weight on top to make it penetrate... There is another mfg that has the tooth angle right. But of course, I forgot the name of it... But your soil conservation district may have an aerway to rent...
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 4:54pm
Lime and fertilizer work well on our orchard grass fields. Application is a result of soil samples we take. We did plow our ground 5 years ago when we reseeded so I would say that definitely helps to absorb the chemicals. We applied lime in the fall, fertilizer in the spring. Our first cut was thick and tall. A subsoiler if you don’t want to plow? I love to plow and it does make a big difference in soil preparation for hay crops.
------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 5:28pm
Benny when I see a field of mine that’s not up to par I get the moldboard plow in action. When I rip up the top soil 10 inches deep and reseed, it’s simply unbelievable the yields of crops I attain after such. Yeah it’s lots of work initially but OMG. Seems lots of good “stuff” gets awaken in the soil. That’s what I do. Good luck. Dana
------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana
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Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 5:32pm
here is what I get ehen I plow.in spring.

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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 5:40pm
The pH level of the soil is vital to growing lush, green lawns. Many people have a basic understanding of a pH scale, knowing that it measures how acidic or alkaline something maybe. If you own a pool, then you know that correcting and balancing the pH of the swimming water is important. On a scale of 1 to 14, a pH of 1 is very acidic and a pH of 14 is very alkaline (or basic), while a pH reading of 7 is neutral. Lawns grow best in soil that is slightly acidic to neutral (between 6.2 and 7.0 on the pH scale). Seemingly small changes in pH readings can mean big changes for turfgrass plants. That is because the pH scale is logarithmic. This means that a pH reading of 5 is ten times more acidic than a pH reading of 6, one hundred times more acidic than a pH reading of 7, and so on.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 5:42pm
so changing the pH from 5 to 6 is not a 20% increase... it is X 10 increase !!
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 5:58pm
Sounds like great Blueberry ground to me!
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 6:00pm
The ground should be sprayed to kill the present growth at least 2 weeks before you plow or that will be the result. Any time the ground is disturbed new plant life seams to grow from dormant seed. I used a big offset disc last fall to cut up 5 separate fields for my buddy last year because he doesn’t have a plow. I ran the disc in 2 different directions to make sure it was cut up as deep as possible and that there were no clumps. I then pulled a hand made 12’ double pole drag over each field to level. Then a cultipacker. I used a MF drill and Gary used his no-till drill to reseed. We # the field. It was so smooth to cut with a discbine, rake and bale this spring. The orchard grass was thick and produced beautiful hay. Lime and fertilizer was applied of course per soil test. He normally no-tills but it was time for these 5 fields to be turned over as production was way down. Now, they are back to big production again. Turning the ground over is expensive in fuel cost, time consuming, but the results are amazing with good prep. He bales 20k-25k square bales of orchard grass and 2k round bales to sell to his customers.
------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 6:33pm
Refresh my memory. Are you trying to be organic?? Very near organic? Just what set of rules do you want to follow?
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Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 8:14pm
I am not against spraying...
however I do not have good spray equipment nor the knowledge to be efficient at spraying.
But I am kinda confusing 2 issues here.
This Thread is on lime on Hayfields...
I have approximately 35 acreas of of hay fields and 5 acres of pasture.....
We use to have more pasture and less hay fields but I have reclaimed some of the wet or hard to navigate pasture fields and extend the hay fields into those old pastures... for easier mowing if for no other reason. Via. drainage pipes with gravel, recontouring the land ETC. Currently laid 1200' of drain pipe and have about that much more to do.
currently trying to get 10 acres of hay fields under CLEAN weed free production ... liming, firtilizer, spraying WITHOUT plowing....
Several other fields have been plowed and are being used "AT THIS TIME" for food plots for deer, turkey ETC.
the weedy field in the photo was burned off in February this year. Plowed and planted in Sunflowers by may 15th this year.
had good germination then three week drought. What the drought didn't kill the deer annihilated.... That's what I planted it for but was hopping to get some yeld for the doves and turkey...
I chemicaly burned off this weed field 2 weeks ago with Glysophate .....
it didn't knock down well. like I said I have no real spraying equipment or the knowledge.... Yes I can read directions but calculating application rates. Via ground speed pump pressure and nozzle type. ET. ETC ETC. Well I got a lot to learn...
Anyway we mowed it off ...
used disc harrow on it along with a test of my home made sub soiler...
Spread lime on it yesterday at 4000 lbs to the acre .
Plan to disc and cultipack again.
then plant turnips in the next week....
Anyway, back to my original thread. What tillage tool can I use to help lime get into the soil ????
thanks in advance
------------- The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate
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Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 9:15pm
OK
Aerway aerator and subsoiler....
I have used subsoiler in the past.... Was not wanting to bust up the surface ground as the one I had did.....
I do like subsoiler idea ..
Will look into Aireator
------------- The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate
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Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 9:16pm
Best thing to do is let someone tend it a year or two to get it where you want if time frame allows.. If not ,I would if it were mine I would put it in wheat, mix my fescue or orchard grass with it. Cut the wheat next spring for hay., Then your grass crop could take off. Better stand of grass this way around here. JMHO. Tracy
------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids!
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Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 9:29pm
Benny, I re read the post. Yes an aerator of pasture rejuvenator would help greatly. Ground that is 30 years no plow and pastured or hay ground would benefit the most from plowing, disc chisel, or heavy offset disc. In the long run, they will do best. If you want hay, tending it a year or two will get it in ship shape if done correctly. JMHO, Tracy
------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids!
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Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 11:17pm
Hey Tracy
what do you mean by tending it for a year or 2 ?
------------- The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate
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Posted By: KJCHRIS
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 11:54pm
Do you have a sub-soiler of some kind ? I'd think even just a cut 8-12" deep every few feet could help the lime get into ground with any rains you get. My uncle and grandfather applied dry fertilizer to the stands of alfalfa/orchard grass every year and applied lime and fertilizer before discing the year that seed was drilled. A couple times we applied dry fert after 1st cutting just after chopping it. I'm not sure of quantities or how often lime was added. They always had a thick stand of hay.
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Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 5:03am
Get a real soil test from Kinsey Ag Services not a useless one like the county agent gives you.A good investment would be Kinsey's book Hands on Agronomy,get it from Acres USA book store on line.
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Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 5:29am
Also I have to fall plow so Mom Nature breaks up the clay ground into powder for me by springtime. Neighbor plowed this spring with pitiful resulting corn stands.
------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 6:51am
So, not tilled for 30+ years. Also not fertilized or seeded for 30 years? And pastured, how “heavily” pastured? Really doesn’t matter all that much. As you’ve noticed, spreading some lime on top didn’t help much. But you did say the pH has changed, quite nicely really, so the lime is doing its job. How do you know the pH changed? You must have had it tested. What else did you test for? A soil test of, what has the field been doing the last couple years and what you want it to do at what production level is needed. You want “hay”. Right now must be just the various grasses left in the pasture.
If it was mine, I would thoroughly till it, pick a method, I don’t think it’s that important. Plow, chisel plow, offset disc, friggin’ rototiller. Get a soil test before or during this time, usually takes a couple weeks. Let the weeds flush in, kill them good. Then seed the hay species you want. Weeds will likely come back. When they do, cut the hay even if it’s not “ready “. A couple cuttings of hay and fertilize every year the hay will out compete the weeds.
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Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 7:24am
You need to subsoil it deep. Gets the rain water down in and airetion(sp?). Without getting to deep into soil chemistry rainwater affects pH. Sounds like your trying to lime a parking lot. If you're dealing with Western PA clay it's been moldboard plowed for 200 years. The last 30 not withstanding you've probably got a hardpan just below plow depth. Not to mention compaction from grazing. Pasture management around here usually consists of leaving them on untill it's eat down to near bare then moving them. Bare earth even bakes harder.
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Posted By: CORLEWFARM
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 7:30am
If you don't get the ph right chemicals,fertilizer ect doesn't work as well. First thing to do is get ph right before anything else.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 7:55am
CORLEWFARM wrote:
If you don't get the ph right chemicals,fertilizer ect doesn't work as well. First thing to do is get ph right before anything else. | He’s got the pH into the low 6’s he says. So he’s not that far off. A little farther would be better, sure.
I agree he’s got a helluva hard pan, and will need subsoiled or something like that. But still going to have to get it mellow and smooth not “just “ subsoiled.
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Posted By: DanielW
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:50am
As others have mentioned, lime itself doesn't add nutrients (except for calcium. And magnesium if dolomitic). But it does make more nutrients available. Especially potassium: Most soils have more aluminum than you would think (in the form of bauxite), but soils that are acidic are usually even higher in aluminum. This is a compound problem: at lower pH levels aluminum severely restricts the uptake of potassium, and these lower pH levels are often found in soils that contain higher amounts of aluminum.
Sounds like you've got the pH about right so the plants can use whatever nutrients are available. Now you need to make sure the nutrients are there. You're going about it the right way: First step is always to get the pH right, then get your nutrients right. They say if a field needs both lime and fertilizer and you only have money for one, go with the lime. Breaking up the ground will probably show the biggest improvement. Subsoiling would be ideal on that hard pan, but even just conventional plowing will help tremendously. I suspect after 30 years there's not much of the original stand left, so you're liming/fertilizing volunteer growth. You can add oodles of fertilizer and lime, but you just don't have enough of a stand to be able to use it.
If breaking it up isn't in the near future, maybe try some frost seeding. Our land has very low pH levels and is so rocky that breaking anything up is a nightmare - every day spent plowing means a week of back-breaking stone picking. We're able to maintain our hay stands very well for up to 20 years without breaking it up by the right application of lime; fertilizer; and frost seeding clovers, timothy, trefoil, and orchard grass into it every spring. Some of the best results are obtained by mixing seed in with the lime, through if you're having it spread for you this isn't an option. Most of the time I do it by walking around the fields with a hand-crank satchel-type broadcast spreader that holds about 30 pounds of seed. Usually about 5-10 pounds an acre. Unfortunately the efficacy of frost seeding is very dependent on the spring weather. In a spring with lots of rain, the frost seeding can be almost as good as if it were drilled. In a dry spring, it's just a waste of seed. Alfalfa can be frost seeded quite well, but not into an existing alfalfa stand due to auto-toxicity issues. If you can get alfalfa established in that hard pan, the deep and thick tap roots will help break up that hard soil.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 9:22am
Our soil here is Loess, so moisture can deep travel regardless of compaction, for soil tests for Septic we found roots of Grasses down close to two feet. HOWEVER Grasses do better above 5pH and we lime around every 3-5 years to drive pH higher but not to the Basic Side or Alkaline. Brome does exceedingly well on a 21 acre patch here. The boys that rent our place fertilize annually as well have added Deep Root Turnip seed to the fertilizer to break the crust on top for moisture and nutrients.
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 12:49pm
Each & every time a hay field has it's haying activities (cut/tethered/raked/baled) a major portion of crop (above the soil line) is removed by bales of hay. Maybe a reasonable guess of ONLY 5% of the crop total yield may be lost to haying processes; and hence, stays in hay field to decay, feed earthworms, & re-fertilizer hay crop for future crop yields? If so, how many tons of the 95% hay crop get removed each baling event ~ total tons removed annually (baled 3-4 times per year)?
How do acres of a forest / timber of Oak / Walnut / Sequoia trees survive decades or even centuries without lime, fertilizers? Answer; Those tree's own decaying leafs, their decaying dead tree limbs, dead trunks, dead roots, etc. Soil microbes/fungi/earthworms etc convert decaying plant material back into soil nutrients. Everything stays. In 5+ years, soil life stabilizes & becomes very efficient converting decaying plant tissues back into more readily available soil nutrients.
Modern day farming can be brutal on crop field soil sustainability. If Livestock is still existent, then it's manure spread back onto crop field helps replenishes some soil nutrients?
Before modern day fertilizers, farms had their own fertility rotations(3-7 crops?)
Crop 1: (Cereal grains) wheat which usually had a plow-down legume frost seeded into them during winter months. After cereal grains were harvested, it's stems/leaves/roots decayed & re-feed soils. The legume continued to grow and could be briefly pastured or hayed and then before next year's corn crop, legume's stems/leaves/roots were plowed under to terminate legume & slowly decay to re-feed soil for next crop.
Crop 2: Legume green manure was useful to fertilize crop 2 (corn ear corn) which is a heavy nitrogen feeder. Ear corn is harvested but remainder of corn plant's stalk/leaves/roots stay in field to decay & re-feed soil. Ear corn cobs eventually come back to field via livestock manure. Crop 3: (soybeans) which fix nitrogen nodules into it's roots. Soybean seed is harvested/removed but rest of plant's stems/branches/leaves/roots are left to decay & re-feed soil.
Crop 4: (Cereal grain) oats used to feed draft horses? Could be frost seeded to legume ~ figure same as Crop 1's soil nutrients re-feed by decaying plant tissues.
Crop 5 (Alfalfa or Clover/timothy hay) crop is grown for livestock / draft horse food. Livestock manure is spread back onto hay crop helps. But if like most farms, a well established hay crop continues for years (3-5?). In that case, hay roots stay living & don't decay. WHAT ~ OH SNAP! Yeah hay crop's roots don't offer any decay food. So every year a hay crop continues, a supplemental food needs to be added to that field.
So,,, If your farm has grown a 30 year hay crop, how much soil nutrient has been depleted by tons of above soil plant tissues removed & no decaying roots in soil??????
Maybe rethink adding necessary crop rotations to supplement your farm's hay crop or can continue to purchase fertilizers/lime/ etc...??
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Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 1:06pm
My County Agent recomended the same thing. Lime and bring the PH up, that will help release other nutrients in the soil.
I believe him as I believe you fellas, I just haven't seen the results...
With that said and with you all recommendations here is what I have experienced.
The production and visable improvements on the edge of the fields I have plowed that are adjacent to fields I have limed are visibly better.... So I know I need to plow those fields or disturb the soil in a way that let's the lime leach into the soil better....
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Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:41pm
Rent it out to a row cropper. They will get it in shape. Be up front what your goal is to them. Might work a deal or barter on it. Tracy
------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids!
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Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:51pm
.
Search for YouTube videos of Dr Christine Jones. Sort by most recent, look for her new Zeeland project.
There's a lot of conventional advice in this thread, that will give you conventional results and conventional problems to deal with.
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Posted By: John Phillis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 11:02pm
I sent you a private message before. Did you get it? I haven’t had a chance to call you yet.
Growmark can come out and spray for you. $18 per acre for their operator and sprayer. Chemical cost is dependent on what you are looking to do. If you are shooting for an all grass hay crop, then there are plenty of low cost options.
Planting new hayfields is easy. I’m sure you already have the equipment, a good grain drill with grass boxes. I suggest either oats or wheat as a nurse crop, about a bushel and a half to the acre. Best to have a good chemical program.
If you plan to do some no till, but you worry about compaction, then you can plant tillage radishes in august, or now, with a no till drill, and then plant the hay crop in the spring. They should penetrate down to the 8-10” depth you would get from tillage. Not to mention they taste great.
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