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Ford FE intake: Iron vs Aluminum?

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Topic: Ford FE intake: Iron vs Aluminum?
Posted By: CrestonM
Subject: Ford FE intake: Iron vs Aluminum?
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:11pm
Hey guys! Starting work on the Ford 352 in my 1965 F-250 that's being turned into a 390. Currently it has a 2 barrel carburetor with cast iron manifold, but a few mechanics have suggested going the 4 barrel route, with the idea it would help highway cruising speed fuel economy, so long as the foot feed isn't just stomped down. 
The truck will be a general use daily driver, but it will see 65 mph highways. Whether the truck goes that fast or not is doubtful, but yet to be determined. It's coupled to a four speed New Process 435 transmission with 4.10 differential gears. 
Curious what the thoughts are here...2 barrel vs 4 barrel, and if switching to 4 barrel, is it worth it to go with an aluminum performance intake such as one from Edelbrock, or stick with cast iron? I know the iron intake weighs about 80 lbs, but that's not an issue that will sway the decision for me. I'm just concerned about air flow and warpage of the intake. I've heard the aluminum intakes have a higher likelihood of warping? 
Thought?
Thanks! 



Replies:
Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:54pm
First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 4:56pm
Get a 2 plane intake not single plane as you want to make torque. Install a stump puller cam or rv cam since you are into the motor anyway.


Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:03pm
  I would go with the modern four barrel, just because of the advancements for tuning and fuel economy, nobody really messes with two barrel.
  
 Know people with 427 medium, high, tunnel port heads, 390 GT heads, no issues with aluminum intakes warping, unheard of.


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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       


Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile

  Holley is no longer on the top.


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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       


Posted By: Michael V (NM)
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:00pm
I don't know if you checked yet, but that FE manifold is kinda hi dollar...
Unless the newer hollies are better, I'd steer away from them, one little hiccup and they blow the power valve...they may be better now, I don't know..
Ya might want to look into an aftermarket EFI
If your jus crusin, and not pulling a trailer, I'd stay around a 3:50 rearend ratio,, any pullin or hauling, I would stay around 3:73..heavy hauling on a steady basis, keep the 4:11


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

First thing you want to do is get an overdrive trans or change rear gear. Unless you want to spend a whole bunch on fuel at todays prices. Go 3.50 with over drive trans or about 3.25 if you want to stay with 4 speed. Is that the same family as 390? So can you just change crank or how are you doing it? Next get an aluminum intake and Holley 4 barrel with vacuum secondaries 600-650 cfm. No bigger! Then go and have fun. Smile
Yes, a 352 and 390 have the same block but different rotating assemblies. Going to bore the block and install a 390 crank, rods, and pistons. 
I've thought about a ZF5 transmission, and there are kits out there to do the swap. The thing I read that made me start to reconsider though is this...correct me if this is wrong....an article was explaining how these old carbureted engines perform at maximum fuel burning efficiency about 3,000-3,500 RPM. By using an OD transmission and dropping the RPMs, the engine is burning fuel less efficiently and the MPG actually drops. Is this in any way right? 


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Michael V (NM) Michael V (NM) wrote:

I don't know if you checked yet, but that FE manifold is kinda hi dollar...
Unless the newer hollies are better, I'd steer away from them, one little hiccup and they blow the power valve...they may be better now, I don't know..
Ya might want to look into an aftermarket EFI
If your jus crusin, and not pulling a trailer, I'd stay around a 3:50 rearend ratio,, any pullin or hauling, I would stay around 3:73..heavy hauling on a steady basis, keep the 4:11
Yeah I've seen they carry about a $500 price tag. 
I don't know much about the Holleys myself, so that's good to know. What else is there? Edelbrock? EFI sounds nice but the pricetag of those makes me cringe a little. I'll see how much the rest of the build runs and go from there. 
It will be a daily driver just cruising most of the time and doing running around the farm. Will pull a trailer occasionally, but probably nothing heavier than my 8N for the most part. 


Posted By: dp7000
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:18pm
I’d stay old school for all around economy. I’d try to find a used 4bbl intake (cast or aluminum) cheap. Holley carb used and put a kit in it. Not sure what rear end is in the truck but probably try to find another one 3.25 ratio. Lots of Ford 9 inch around and bulletproof. As long as you keep your foot out of it and cruise/coast it’ll get fair gas mileage. Other options sound expensive to me. Cool project for sure.


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:28pm
I had a 1989 F250  (351 V8) with the ZF 5 sp manual... Low gear was about 6 to 1 so GOOD for pulling from a stop... and HIGH gear was about .75 to 1  ............ and it had a 4.11 rear end, but with the OD it was equal to having a 3.25 rear end.... best of both worlds.


top speed in 1st was about 10 MPH and on the highway it would do 90 MPH pretty easy.



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Like them all, but love the "B"s.


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

I had a 1989 F250  (351 V8) with the ZF 5 sp manual... Low gear was about 6 to 1 so GOOD for pulling from a stop... and HIGH gear was about .75 to 1  ............ and it had a 4.11 rear end, but with the OD it was equal to having a 3.25 rear end.... best of both worlds.


top speed in 1st was about 10 MPH and on the highway it would do 90 MPH pretty easy.




That really does sound like the best of both worlds!


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 9:55pm
The intake, exhaust, and chamber volumes all have to work in concert, with camshaft and compression ratio to match... changing any ONE may make some improvement, or it may make it worse, depending on the rest of the factors.

Since you're bumping it to 390, that means boring it by 0.050" and swapping to 3.78" stroke... that means your piston velocities will be higher, hence the airflow velocity through valves will need to go higher.  Will your valve surface area change?  What's happening with your camshaft profile?

Car guys will jump on it immediately, but in your context, the 4.10 ratio may not be out of reason, that totally depends on the tire diameter that you'll be running... but your highway RPM under that circumstance may be high enough that you won't be able to economize at TODAY's interstate speeds.  If you're swinging large tires, pulling a trailer, and staying under 60mph, that ratio may be fine, but again, it's about having matched volumes, appropriate cam choice, and a compression ratio that'll provide the airflow rates that the piston velocity and valve area need.

In terms of choosing, if it were something you planned on driving every day, I'd suggest adapting a Rochester TBI-220 throttle body from a 93'ish 5.7L GM, a 15psi electric fuel pump, and a MegaSquirt controller... a simple injection system like this will outperform ANY carbeurator in basically every aspect of operation.

The intake manifold you choose, for a carbeurated application, will need to have provision for carb base heat.  Oklahoma has environmental circumstances that lead to carb icing during warmup, even on a sunny 75F day.


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: tomNE
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 10:26pm
invest in an aluminum intake.   you'll never be sorry.  front end weight is only magnified by a cast iron manifold!
 


Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 12:58am
don't buy the 'better fuel milage with a four barrel myth'. 

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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27


Posted By: tomNE
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 5:40am
your not going to get any better mileage out of an FE, no matter what you do!  I just worked on a ton of them, when they were Fords "go to" motor. I actually preferred them to that next generation of engines like the 400 and 429.  they had some weaknesses just like every other engine.   always needed to have the cam retimed and the lifters were all junk and the distributor's were borderline.   then getting to know the block was recast between 64 and 65 from 2 bolt motor mounts to 3 bolts, always came in handy in the olden days.  I would imagine now, that someone makes a mount that fits both.  


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:00am
Unless you want to become a Holley guru use an Edelbrock.  I've run an 390/four speed/ 4.10  F-350 in daily farm use and that Holley was a constant issue. Edelbrocks are set it and forget it carbs. I've slso used several Edelbrock alumnium intakes on farm trucks with zero issues.

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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: fixer1958
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:27am
Stay away from a Holley. Edelbrock is what I would go with. A lot less problems.



Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 7:55am
Well over 30 years ago, I built and dropped a 390 into my '69, half ton four wheel drive pickup. That's one project that I did that was the equivalent of a "blind squirrel finding a nut!"
Everything about that pickup was pure pleasure. Had a four speed manual, 3:54 rear end ratios, and would run like a scalded dog! It didn't have a low range transfer case, but nonetheless would climb like a mountain goat. Posi rear end helped there, but no shortage of power. On the highway, would bury the needle on the 100 MPH speedometer! Still have the pickup out here, turned it over to my son. Hasn't been run in quite a few years, lack of time, and interest in Allis chalmers stuff has kind of taken precedence over it.
I had an aluminum edelbrock Sp2p intake manifold on it, and not one regret in the world over that. Now a carburetor man, I most definitely am not! Tried a Holly on it, but could not find enough Holly gurus to keep it adjusted. Some GM nut friends of mine talked me into adapting it to a Quadra Jet carb, and I know that a GM carb on a Ford is wrong on every level, but it truly was a trouble free carb. Not saying that I recommend it, but it worked for me. Lot of things about it, wish I knew then what I know now. The absolute best that it ever run was when I was running an old late 50's vintage auto lite four barrel off a police interceptor car (ok, there's an "old school" term) on it, but with the secondaries sticking open a couple times, I scrapped that carb in a hurry for safety sake. Looking back, I since realized that I most likely could have had the butterfly rod pivots drilled out and re-bushinged to alleviate that problem. Would definitely have given that a try. Anyway, nuff rambling from me, I hope that you have most successful results with this build.
Darrel


Posted By: dp7000
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:34am
Edelbrock carbs are good. Trouble free. I’ve got a couple. #1407 or 1408 I think. Probably best cost effective way to go.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 9:51am
Edelbrock AFB Clone is a sweet carb, simple and less issues than a Holley.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 11:37am
Holley's Demon is their version of the old Carter Thermoquad. Another set it and forget it carb.

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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2022 at 6:27pm
Holley is still the best carb but as in all things there are various opinions as you can see above. Price is close on all. Holley is easiest to work on and all adjustments easier. Parts readily available. They make carb to fit any application and have been making them forever. Fuel mileage is as good as any. If you want to go EFI go Holley as well. These guys know their fuel systems!!!! I am running a 650 vacuum secondary on a 372  cu in sbc. Happened to dyne 461 hp and 450 ft/lbs torque. Smile


Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:14am
The question that keeps coming to mind for me is: "You think a FORD can get good fuel mileage in any fashion?".  Back in the 70s a friend of mine got a new Ford 3/4 ton P/U at the same time I brought a new Dodge 3/4 ton P/U with nearly identical specifications and his Ford barely got half the mileage I was getting. I agree with many others that in today's world the Edelbrock (Carter AFB clone) would be a better choice for a street carburetor. As for the manifold there are many designs available that are made for street/economy.
 Holley's are fine for racing and power, not so much for economy. They are simpler and easer to tune than Edelbrock's/Carter's, although you can never get a Holley tuned to give both power and ideal economy.  The power valve blowout problem has been addressed by Holley and New ones don't have that issue. 


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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:56am
This one would work great for what you want. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7105" rel="nofollow - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7105
When I was young I had a pretty good 390. The intake was off a 428 'police interceptor', I think. It was cast iron, worked great, just heavy. Pretty sure the ones on 428 Cobra Jet's were the same but made of aluminum. Half the weight probably.



Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 7:59am
I got 19.5 mpg with my car driving from north of Toronto to Columbus Ohio to the good guys meet. That is per Imperial gallon so about 16 mile per US gal. 3.50 gear and overdrive trans (.68) So the Holley mileage is good. My buddy has almost identical car. He bought the Edelbrock that you are talking about and was not happy with the performance. We played with it a bit. He finally got a Holley 650 mechanical secondary. We put it on. No other changes! Took it for a test drive. Never saw anyone so happy. You couldn't keep the smile off his face. He does a lot of autocross events at the Goodguys shows. You could have bought a cheap almost new Edelbrock that day.


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:04am
Yes Mike that would be an excellent choice. As I said stick to a 2 plane like that for what Creston is doing.That is the one I would use. And yes I know it is Edelbrock. Lol. Their intakes are great.Smile


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:07am
I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 9:46am
I have an Edelbrock on my 351 Windsor.
It’s electric choke and starts and runs like an EFI.
That said it just doesn’t seem right. I’ve changed a few things and got it better but still not good.
The low end was much better with a 2100 2 barrel.
I’ll be switching back.


Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 3:19pm
 Make sure the 4 barrel carb has the stuff for the kick down from the transmission to attach to, my son put a 4 barrel on my 1975 and it didn't have the brackets for the kick down. It's not problem for me because I don't need any extra for pulling.


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:12pm
I did some more looking at parts for these things, wow, there is some really cool parts available nowadays! Holly checkbook though!! It adds up fast. That's why I moved away from the hot rod scene when I did.


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:18pm
Guy I received the KW From is onto GM Racing engines, was explaining the other day, has a 1000hp balanced and blueprinted engine for a truck he wants to build, has almost as much in it as I have IN TOTAL in the KW.  Dropped $10k ADDITIONAL to what already had In It, on it in a month and that is JUST the engine.


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 6:37pm
Holley has all the right kickdoown brackets for Chev, Ford and Mopar. Just tell them what application you have.


Posted By: im4racin
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 8:05pm
Since you are this far in I would recommend a Holley sniper efi.  It’s a little spendy but well worth it


Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2022 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.

Also had a Holley on my 390 in the Cyclone. A 750 double pumper. 0 trouble and pegged the speedo a couple times


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2022 at 7:03am
May have found you a crank, forged pistons and an intake. Will know in a couple days.


Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2022 at 12:48pm
.

How smooth are the flow passages in those two manifolds?
That will change performance.

As far as the carb selection... See what this guy did.
He has a whole series on this build, a lawnmower carb on a V8, the trick was an electronic controller. It's fun and check the channel series.
https://youtu.be/1xHQWu2ZzPc" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/1xHQWu2ZzPc

.


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:15am
Originally posted by exSW exSW wrote:

Unless you want to become a Holley guru use an Edelbrock.  I've run an 390/four speed/ 4.10  F-350 in daily farm use and that Holley was a constant issue. Edelbrocks are set it and forget it carbs. I've slso used several Edelbrock alumnium intakes on farm trucks with zero issues.
I think for sure I'm going to upgrade to the Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake. Unless I find a good 4 barrel iron intake locally for a low price. 


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:18am
Originally posted by dp7000 dp7000 wrote:

Edelbrock carbs are good. Trouble free. I’ve got a couple. #1407 or 1408 I think. Probably best cost effective way to go.
Been looking at a 1406. It's 600 cfm vs the 1407 at 750 cfm. I think for my application the 600 might be more appropriate, but I'm not sure on that. 


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:20am
Originally posted by PaulB PaulB wrote:

The question that keeps coming to mind for me is: "You think a FORD can get good fuel mileage in any fashion?".  
Haha no I don't think it will, I just want to try to get the "best possible for my budget". I know it's probably not going to be "good".


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

I have an Edelbrock on my 351 Windsor.
It’s electric choke and starts and runs like an EFI.
That said it just doesn’t seem right. I’ve changed a few things and got it better but still not good.
The low end was much better with a 2100 2 barrel.
I’ll be switching back.
I wonder why that would be? 


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:26am
Originally posted by plummerscarin plummerscarin wrote:

Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

I always liked Holley's when I was in the 'Hot Rod' phase of my life. Easy to tune and somehow I never had the power valve trouble people talk about.

Also had a Holley on my 390 in the Cyclone. A 750 double pumper. 0 trouble and pegged the speedo a couple times
Right now I'm debating whether I want a double pumper or vacuum secondaries. I hear good and bad about both. Good to know you like it!


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:44am
Thank you everyone for the replies. All of my dealings with carburetors till now have been tractor carburetors and a one barrel Rochester on a 1951 Chevrolet. So I'm still trying to learn about these 2 and 4 barrels, as they seem to be totally different animals. 
In my research, I think I've narrowed it down to these Edelbrock and a Holley models.

Edelbrock 1405 with manual choke:
http://www.edelbrock.com/performer-series-600-cfm-carburetor-with-manual-choke-in-satin-non-egr-1405.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.edelbrock.com/performer-series-600-cfm-carburetor-with-manual-choke-in-satin-non-egr-1405.html

Edelbrock 1406 with electric choke: 
http://www.edelbrock.com/performer-series-600-cfm-carburetor-with-electric-choke-in-satin-non-egr-1406.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.edelbrock.com/performer-series-600-cfm-carburetor-with-electric-choke-in-satin-non-egr-1406.html

Holley 1850 with manual choke:
http://www.amazon.com/Holley-0-1850S-Performance-Secondary-Carburetor/dp/B00029J3Y8?tag=jymob-20" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/Holley-0-1850S-Performance-Secondary-Carburetor/dp/B00029J3Y8?tag=jymob-20

Holley with electric choke:
http://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/factory_refurbished_carburetors/parts/FR-80457SA?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping+-+Holley+Carburetors+-+Non-Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=969055918&hsa_grp=81174499567&hsa_ad=379694246056&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-1074711693100:pla-914679861573&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw54iXBhCXARIsADWpsG_GTDW0QUhyB-Rdokf8JuT8NUWvzb6DCezDocExmCpOMBayNaY26dwaAv66EALw_wcB" rel="nofollow - http://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/factory_refurbished_carburetors/parts/FR-80457SA?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping+-+Holley+Carburetors+-+Non-Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=969055918&hsa_grp=81174499567&hsa_ad=379694246056&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-1074711693100:pla-914679861573&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw54iXBhCXARIsADWpsG_GTDW0QUhyB-Rdokf8JuT8NUWvzb6DCezDocExmCpOMBayNaY26dwaAv66EALw_wcB

Also the GM EFI throttle body Dave mentioned:
http://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/throttle_bodies/gm_throttle_bodies/parts/502-9?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping+-+Holley+EFI+-+Non-Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=1754044953&hsa_grp=81020993469&hsa_ad=393444857186&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-1187927231023:pla-1395176264053&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj4ecBhD3ARIsAM4Q_jGqL697IIPARi826aWZwwV8i5RrZQ-g8Ls6PweTdn0PHJQAZXWKbdUaApbmEALw_wcB" rel="nofollow - http://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/throttle_bodies/gm_throttle_bodies/parts/502-9?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping+-+Holley+EFI+-+Non-Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=1754044953&hsa_grp=81020993469&hsa_ad=393444857186&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-1187927231023:pla-1395176264053&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj4ecBhD3ARIsAM4Q_jGqL697IIPARi826aWZwwV8i5RrZQ-g8Ls6PweTdn0PHJQAZXWKbdUaApbmEALw_wcB


It seems the Holley vs Edelbrock debate is about like the Ford vs GM vs Mopar debate. I think each has their good and bad qualities, although I'm tending to lean toward the Edelbrock. Would it be bad to choose a manual choke? I'm used to using them on all my gas tractors and that 1951 Chevrolet, so it seems like this wouldn't be much different. Is the electric choke as simple as running a power wire from the key switch? I understand we've made a lot of improvements to technology over the last 50 years, but at the end of the day, I like to keep things fairly straightforward and simple. 
Should 600 cfm be adequate for a mostly stock 390? 

A question about the secondaries...the Holleys have vacuum and I think the Edelbrocks are mechanical. What are the reasons to choose one over the other? 
Thanks!


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:03am
Creston the Holley is available with either vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary. Your choice. That 1850 you are looking at would do a good job. For what you are doing I would go with vacuum secondary. You can also get different springs from Holley to get secondary to come in faster or slower although usually the stock one is good. Keep in mind that Ford used Holleys on their heavier trucks back in  the day. The 1850 you are looking is vacuum secondary operated by that little pot on the right side. Oh and electric choke is great - one hot wire to hook up. Manual would work for you as well. You won't need choke much down there. A bit in your cold months.
There have been a lot of totally different opinions here. Hope we did not make it more difficult for you. Whatever you do stick to vacuum secondary for that truck application. All these heavier truck applications came that way for good reasons. Smile


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:13am
You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:19am
[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.


Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:36am
Creston, I think it’s awesome that your restoring an antique pickup. Like most items manufactured during that era, they hold some great craftsmanship. Congratulations!
Today’s technologies are more abundant, but may not always be quality oriented. Is product built in USA? Mexico? China? How does product reviews rate?

In my past restoration projects, I’ve had the most rewarding results/ satisfaction when I call the companies (like the ones you’re listied/interested in possibly purchasing their products) and visit with their technical support people.
Communicate every detail about your 1965 f250’s original equipment, your build ideas, and then allow them an opportunity to respond.

Allow them multiple visits. Welcome follow up about additional questions/concerns. Also accept multiple representatives to voice their perspectives, not just one person.

Through the process it usually becomes vividly apparent which company to work with & which of their products to use.

Best of luck. If possible, please share some photos ~ before/during/after.


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 9:10am
Creston check out part number 0-80783C at Summit. That is 650 cfm 4150 series carb. That is their classic performance carb. $643. That carb has some significant advantages over the 1850. Dual fuel inlets, adjustable floats front and rear and small window in float bowl so you can see fuel level, electric or manual choke. 650 would be a good size for almost 400 cid. Or if you want more same unit is available in 750 cfm for less money. I guess they sell more of those. 


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.

I raced Stock cars for 34 years. I got to know a little about Holley carbs.
I’ve also owned over 75 Ford Fe engines in various trucks and learned a little about them along the way.
Not trying to be a smart Alec.


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

[QUOTE=Thad in AR.]You’ll see absolutely no gains of a 4 barrel at low rpm.
Edelbrocks are known for a dead spot. It can be remedied but takes time and money.
Machine shop is supposed to get back with me again early next week.
He thinks he has a crank, pistons clock and 4 barrel intake. I didn’t ask what the intake was?
That is correct Thad. And they are not supposed to and no one is claiming that. The vacuum sec carb runs on the two front barrels only until the rears are pulled open as needed at higher rpm only. That is beauty of the Holley vacuum 4 barrel.

I raced Stock cars for 34 years. I got to know a little about Holley carbs.
I’ve also owned over 75 Ford Fe engines in various trucks and learned a little about them along the way.
Not trying to be a smart Alec.

Yes and I did not say or infer that. Just trying to help Creston make a decision but I think he is overloaded now. Smile My first car was 1959 Ford with that engine (332 cu in). It had 2 barrel carb but I can't remember which carb. I put a 4 barrel intake and small Holley vacuum sec.4 barrel on it. Drove it for several years. Really worked nice.


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:15pm
Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.

Don’t know of an exhaust crossover on fe motors??
The y-blocks had a cross over.
Where is it located?


Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:05pm
FE series did not have, EGR was Ported of a Ex Manifold on later model installs.  X-over was a easy source of heat to vaporize mixture for better combustion, GM used it for decades. 


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

Originally posted by CrestonM CrestonM wrote:

Well, overloaded is a pretty accurate word, but I think I’m slowly getting it figured out. One thing I’m still thinking of is the exhaust crossover. Can someone explain what that is? I read about it on Ford forums and some people delete it, but I don’t know what it is.

Don’t know of an exhaust crossover on fe motors??
The y-blocks had a cross over.
Where is it located?
That's what I don't know. I read about it several places. This link is what came up first after searching "Ford FE Exhaust Crossover". All the sites say to block them off if using an aluminum intake, but thought I'd ask here. 
http://www.fordfe.com/closing-off-the-exhaust-crossover-ports-t59575.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.fordfe.com/closing-off-the-exhaust-crossover-ports-t59575.html


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:03am
Sorry I was thinking exhaust pipe.
They make gas kits that block this off. If you buy an aluminum intake you can weld the ports shut.
I’ve made block off out of heavy tin before.


Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 7:47am
Mopars used a cross over exhaust too. Yes per an earlier post about fuel atomization, plus it assisted with quicker release of automatic chokes.
I don’t know about Ford’s cross-over, but the mopars had a tendency to “carbon close” as passage was narrow where head connected to intake. They’d carbon close so tight that a hammer & chisel would be required to clean them open.


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:33pm
Okay, so everybody has their own opinion on this so I'll give you my experience with this stuff being I've been a hotrodder for 60+ years and still into it. Four barrels are much better than two barrels on larger engines because of better fuel mix or charge to each cylinder. Also, a lot has to do with the intake manifold used as Ed mentioned. Being I'm a Chevy guy, I always worked on the Carter AFB's & Q-jets although I have some Fords in my corral as well and worked on many Holleys and Autolites over the years when I had the Auto repair shop. The Q-jet always took a bad rap all the time (like the Powerglide trans) because if you weren't used to working on that particular Carb, you had problems. That Carb is one of the best designed Carbs ever made in my opinion. In front, you have the small throttle blades for low speed driving and excellent mileage. Out back, (depending on the cfm size) you had two trash can lids for secondaries. Set up correctly, when you stuck your big toe into those secondaries, with the engine set up right, you wouldn't need seat belts cause the crack of yer' ass is mashed in the seat! The problem with the Q-jet is it's not real easy to adapt to some applications without some fabricating. I actually adapted a Q-jet to a Dodge Police cruiser and it worked great. But, that's another story.

Now, let's talk about Holleys. Personally, I hate Holleys for the street. Not because they aren't a good performance Carburetor, its because of other stupid issues they have like metering block gaskets leaking puddling up fuel in the intake manifold. Nice setup for a fire if you aren't aware or didn't lift the hood, if the car or truck sat for a while before you got your butt in it to take it for a ride or use it for chores. I ran Holleys on my Drag car for a while and they worked well. Lots of adjustability for racing, till I moved to Hilborn Injection which is a whole other thing. If you had a Holley on your street car that was a tick on the lean side, or if the electric choke kicked off a little to soon and it popped back through the Carb, (one of the guys mentioned blowing out power valves) Yup! another PIA!  Remove the right lower screw, drain the fuel bowl, change out the power valve AND metering block gasket. (again)

The Edelbrock carb is an upgraded Carter AFB. They're simple, quite easy to work on, & work quite well on pretty much anything, BUT you do have to "dial" them in. Edelbrock's design in the metering rod department made them even easier to work on along with a lot of new bracketry they came up with to hook to the trans. Just like our Tractors, all engines are different, so it's rare you get a "drop on" outta' the box Carb.  Two of my hotrods have Edelbrocks on them along with their intakes, and with a little "dialing in" they work sweet. I did try a Demon Carburetor on Jo Jo's 55' T-bird, and being that was a little bit different and a newer design to me, once I learned how to adjust it by reading the booklet, (similar to others) it's worked flawlessly on the stock 292. 

Sooo, after all of that, I would say for your application Creston, I would call Edelbrock tech, tell them exactly what you have,  and ask them what they recommend for your application. They did all the R&D and dyno work for all of us, for all combinations. They would be the one's to ask as far as induction is concerned. Dual exhaust is also a plus in most applications, but they can also probably can steer you in the right direction in that department too, along with what to run for exhaust and camshaft profile....... Good luck man!  Hope this project works great for ya!
Steve@B&B 


-------------
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:50pm
Very interesting stuff, Steve. Guess that after reading that, my adapting a Q jet to my ford wasn't the dumbest idea I ever had. I had excellent results with it. Thanks. Darrel


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 11:31am
The engineers at Rochester had their thinking caps on wit' that one! Experimenting over the years with that particular Carburetor used with a one inch Carb spacer for a little more plenum area, netted great results on a lot of different engines that I worked on in mileage as well as torque & power.  With some Carb tuning secrets from Val Headworth, a little jetting, a little timing and hold on!   LOL!
Steve@B&B


-------------
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 3:24pm
  I have heard the Q- jets main down fall is they vapor lock because they dont have big enough fuel bowls, did you ever have that issue?


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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040   R50       


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 5:03pm
I had a few vehicles with Q-jets. Worked very well in all conditions. Had a 77 Gm pickup that we plowed snow with in all kinds of severe weather. Never missed a beat, started and ran well always. Never had any vapour locks. Neat thing about them the rear throttle plates were mechanical but the top plates were vacuum. As they started opening then the extra air/fuel was added. GM engineers knew what they were doing. Smile


Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by tadams(OH) tadams(OH) wrote:

 Make sure the 4 barrel carb has the stuff for the kick down from the transmission to attach to, my son put a 4 barrel on my 1975 and it didn't have the brackets for the kick down. It's not problem for me because I don't need any extra for pulling.

No kickdown linkage needed with manual trans. There's likely enough used manifolds out there for an FE that you shouldn't have to buy new. Edelbrock, Weiand, Holley, Offenhauser all offered a nice dual plane street manifold for the FE. The AFB Edelbrock carbs would probably work just fine, in 600 cfm, (1406?), though I do prefer Holley style carbs. I'd look into getting a carb from Riley's Rebuilds if I was looking to get an AFB. Put a nice mild hyd cam in it, and time it with cam advanced, it will run like gang busters. The 4.11 might not be a bad thing since this is a 250 with 16" tires. I've forgotten more about FE's than I remember lol! Still have one in my 67 Mustang!


-------------
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 5:29pm
Get whatever carb you want. Lots of choice there but stick to vacuum secondary for your application!!!!


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by injpumpEd injpumpEd wrote:

Originally posted by tadams(OH) tadams(OH) wrote:


 Make sure the 4 barrel carb has the stuff for the kick down from the transmission to attach to, my son put a 4 barrel on my 1975 and it didn't have the brackets for the kick down. It's not problem for me because I don't need any extra for pulling.


There's likely enough used manifolds out there for an FE that you shouldn't have to buy new. Edelbrock, Weiand, Holley, Offenhauser all offered a nice dual plane street manifold for the FE.

Suppose a guy found a like-new Offenhauser for slightly less than the price of a new Edelbrock. Both dual plane aluminum intakes. Is there an advantage to one over the other? Or with the Offenhauser are you just paying for a name?


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by Ed (Ont) Ed (Ont) wrote:

Get whatever carb you want. Lots of choice there but stick to vacuum secondary for your application!!!!

Will do!


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 7:21am
I have never used Offenhauser intake but have certainly heard lots about them.  I would go for it. Vintage on vintage. Makes for great stories in the shop. Smile


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 9:23am
Could someone tell me what the tube coming out of the right front of the manifold is for? None of the new ones I’ve seen have that. At first I thought an oil fill tube but since I haven’t had my manifold off yet, I don’t know where it would lead to if that’s the case.
Also, why is there a notch machined out of the divider between the plenums?
Last question…there is a hole at the back end of manifold with two bolt holes. No other FE manifold I’ve seen has had that hole. Looks like where the thermostat housing would go on a GM. Since GM has the distributor at the opposite end of the thermostat, could it be possible this isn’t an FE intake?


Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 11:54am
Most definitely an FE intake. I have the dual quad version of that. I made a block off plate for the rear opening as the oil fill is in the valve cover. Mine does not have the tube in front


Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 6:17pm
Does it still have the thermostat location on the front?
I’m just wondering if that’s some kind of marine setup?


Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 6:52pm
Yes thermostat is in the front facing forward with an L shaped housing. In photos I've seen the tube is the oil fill. My cast iron manifold for the 68 does not have this fill tube. The Offy dual quad I have has the opening for a fill tube but I don't have the tube. The big opening in the back opens directly to the lifter valley. I don't know what would go there and I can't find literature that shows it. That's why I made the block off plate


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2022 at 7:45am
Creston, is that a 'dual port' manifold? They had a divider in the runners. I believe the thinking was to keep the velocity high. Kind of unique. That would make a good intake for what you're doing. Ford buddy of mine growing up had one on a 429 C.J. He also had a 427 tunnel port that I drooled on a time or two. He still has the 429, it's in a '70 Torino Cobra. The tunnel port is long since gone.


Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2022 at 7:47am
rear opening is for earlier FE engines, that used a road draft tube for crankcase ventilation. They also used the tube oil fill in front like pictured. The tube can be removed and a plug installed, and a block off plate put on the rear opening. The FE went through a lot of minor changes in it's multi decade run. 

-------------
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2022 at 12:56pm
Those Dual Port 360 manifolds were supposedly the thing for fuel economy for light driving and still give flow when you stomp on it. They came out after the Arab oil embargos of the late 70s early 80s. The small ports were for the primary barrels. I put one on my 75 P/U with a Thermoquad on it.

-------------
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2022 at 9:26pm
If you are using that intake you will need an adaptor plate to use Quadrajet style carb (small primaries and big secondaries). Those adaptors are maybe an inch thick or a bit less. You have lots of room on a truck so should have lots of hood room. The extra height will give you a few extra ponies on the dyno so a win win deal. Holley square bore will bolt right on.


Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2022 at 8:45am
Let us know what you end up doing. Should make a nice little work truck for you.Smile


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 6:25pm
Will do! Christmas and other stuff going on right now kinda has me sidetracked for a bit, but I'll update as I go.



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