Starter Motor Crashed & Burned
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=170557
Printed Date: 13 May 2025 at 6:22pm
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Topic: Starter Motor Crashed & Burned
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Subject: Starter Motor Crashed & Burned
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 9:57pm
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Converted my WD45 to 12 volt system with a solenoid switch to deliver current to the starter motor. That happened a couple years ago. Tractor has had light use since then. At the time, the original 6 volt starter motor was modified to replace the button contact with a post and to incorporate some sort of "shock absorber" to deal with the higher voltage. Today the starter motor wasn't engaging the ring gear. Here's what I found:  You can see a spot where the casting has been chewed away by the ring gear teeth, so this may have been broken a while. Any thoughts on whether it's better to replace the nose, or should I replace the starter motor with a 12 unit? Thanks for your help! Dave ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Replies:
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2020 at 10:15pm
| I would check timing. Starter spring is usually what 12v breaks. MACK |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 8:18am
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Dave, That does not look good! Thanks for the warning. Old iron, spinning faster. Yea I could see how this could happen! Looks like you need a new starter. I would just find a good used 6 volt and put that in. Also maybe spin the engine by hand and examine the entire ring gear. I would agree that if there are marks from the ring gear that it may have been broken for a while and the nose piece was just dangling in there. Sounds not too good. Let us know how you get this back up and going too. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 8:55am
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Had the starter bee properly rebuilt with 12 volt field coils, it would not hit the ring gear so hard when the starter engages. That extra whump also is hard on the nose casting. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 9:30am
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Appreciate the input, guys. Also showed the photo to my brother-in-law who's a retired Cat mechanic. He agreed with Mack - thought that it was caused by the engine kicking back - timing issue. He felt that the break in the casting looked really fresh. Paul, I think it'd take a lot of stress out of its life if I replace the field coils! Update to come. Dave
------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 9:33am
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re: incorporate some sort of "shock absorber" to deal with the higher voltage. I'd like to see the details as to what that is....... 6 or 12, shouldn't matter as to WHY the ringgear was hitting the nosepiece... I KNOW there's a 6V and a 12v version of starter AND ringgear for D-14s... 6v ones all have 'brush inspection bands' on the starters, 12v ones are sealed( NO band). Found that out one day trying to swap starters... dang they get heavy after awhile !! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: 1939Dodge
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 9:57am
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talk to SteveNJ before you do anything, then go with his advise. |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 10:49am
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Jay - I checked my WD45 folder. I have the receipt from the shop that worked on the starter but it doesn't show any details on the "shock absorber". Dodge - good suggestion - Steve is really helpful on such things! ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 11:10am
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re: incorporate some sort of "shock absorber" to deal with the higher voltage. Its called doing what Paul said .I will not send a customers tractor out of my shop that dose not have correct field coils in it when changed over to 12 volt .Beside a old starter that has been already wore out with a low voltage 6 battery and throwing 12 volt at it is asking for trouble.
------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 11:41am
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Is there a way to tell if the field coils are correct by inspection? Thanks! ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 8:35pm
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I've always preached here, that if you're running a 12V conversion, its always best to do the Starter motor and change it over to 12V's also. When you send 12V current through 6V field coils, it makes the Starter motor violent. The results are usually cracked nose cones, bent or broken drives, or prematurely worn out ring gears. Looking at that drive on your Starter motor in particular Dave, that looks like the engine kicked back at one time or another and whacked the drive. I would bet a paycheck that the mainshaft is probably bent. Doesn't take much. I've removed bent mainshafts and the Starter motors were still working. Inspect the nose cone and make sure the nose cone isn't cracked, or has a hairline crack in it. Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 8:58pm
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Interesting, Steve. I noticed that the starter would wobble a bit in its mount when cranking the engine....perhaps because the shaft was bent when it got whacked by the kickback? I ran across a starter drive called a "barrel drive" - based on the pictures I found, that's the drive that's in my motor. They were mentioned as a good idea if using a 6v starter in a 12v system. Anyone know about them? Dave ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 9:06pm
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They do have a shock absorber in them. It's the spring on starter drive. Them old 6v starters will last a long time at 12v. Might as well run them until they are junk, may never have to be replaced. Have saw more noses broke on 6v than 12v, all because of kick back from advanced timing. MACK |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2020 at 9:46am
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Dave, If it had (past tense) a little wiggle waggle to it, its bent and is done wiggle waggin'! Probably had a little bit of an issue previously, and the second time around did it in. Barrel drive units are what I use in my 6 & 12V rebuilt's along with a rewound armature. Depends on the model Starter and internal design basically. I see Mack is one of those "let r' rip" kinda guys. LOL!! "Run it till its junk".... LOL!! Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2020 at 9:54pm
| If it ain't broke, don't fix it. lol. MACK |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2020 at 9:59pm
Appreciate the suggestions, guys. I'm going to check several possible causes of kickback before I reinstall any starter! I'd sure like to avoid having this happen again.  ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 6:20pm
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Chucked up the armature in my drill press. You can call it "Wobbling Willy"!! I think it's toast. [TUBE]1oQrQ8M49lo[/TUBE] ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 6:55pm
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Check the distributor advance/retard, If they don't get a few drops of oil once in a while, it can stick in advance and then kick when starting. Remove the rotor and in the hollow shaft is a felt wick that you are to keep moist with oil. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 8:19pm
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Thanks, Dusty. I will do that. I did check to make sure that the shaft was able to rotate freely a bit in each direction. ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 5:30am
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A friend of mine would spend all day in his machine shop and FIX 'Willy' to become 'Tommy True'..... Another would spemd a month designing/building an automated machine to fix it in 2-3 minutes.. Me ? I'd buy another starter..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |