WD Timing Without a Crank
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=168541
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 1:12am
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Topic: WD Timing Without a Crank
Posted By: WDStudent
Subject: WD Timing Without a Crank
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 9:40pm
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New member, first post, and newbie working on old tractors. I just got a rebuilt magneto for my 49 WD and am ready to time the engine and install the mag. Problem is I have a crank, but no stem coming out of the crank hole to attach the crank to. Any ideas on how to spin the motor slow without a crank? I've pulled all the plugs so there'll be little compression resistance. I've tried pulling on the belt, but no luck. Guess I'll try a wrench on one of the pulleys next. I'd appreciate any ideas. Thank you.
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Replies:
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 9:59pm
| Bump starter with finger in plug hole until you get close, then turn with flywheel until marks on flywheel line up. MACK |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 12:10am
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Thanks. I'll give it a shot. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 8:02am
| When the setscrew on the crankshaft pulley is straight DOWN, you are at TDC on #1 cylinder. |
Posted By: theropod
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 8:27am
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Jack up one rear wheel and place the transmission in the highest gear. Turn the wheel until the timing marks line up. Leave spark plugs out. ------------- Put the bunny back in the box! 1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200 No private messages: use email: theropod AT yahoo DOT com |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 8:55am
| Numbers 1 and 4 will be TDC when the marks line up, one will be on compression stroke, one finishing exhaust stroke. You need to be sure # 1 is on the compression stroke by feeling pressure via the spark plug hole or checking valve rock (requires removing valve cover). |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 2:05pm
| With the plugs out, You should be able to push/pull on the belt to tension it and turn with fan blade. I usually push in to force in groove.. A pry from under neath at the flywheel will probably be more precise. |
Posted By: Alex09(WI)
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 9:35pm
What this guy said! No need to look for timing marks!! Install the mag when the setscrew is pointing down with rotor pointing to #1. Plug spark plug wires in in firing order. If no start, move spark plug wires 180 deg around the distributor cap. Tractor WILL run one of the 2 ways. ------------- www.awtractor.com A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 10:02pm
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I appreciate all your help. Wish I'd read all the posts before trying the bump start this morning. My WD has been converted to 12 volt so the starter spins like a top. I was trying to bump start to get it to turn slow or just a little bit. Tried that 3 or 4 times pulling the starter rod very slowly until it would engage, and then I heard a "click" sound from somewhere between the starter and the battery. From that moment on I had zero electrical so no more turning over from starter. I don't know what happened, but in hindsight I should've turned the rear wheel to get everything lined up. So, now that I've got an electrical issue I'd appreciate your help on getting that resolved. Thanks again for your expertise.
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Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 7:04am
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If you can get to nut that holds belt pulley on alt. or gen. tighten fan belt ,remove all spark plus and have someone turn it that way to fine time mag. ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. Just because you do not have the tools for job , it dose not make it a bad design. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 5:49pm
Electrical problem is likely a stuck solenoid, or greenies in the copper cables, look at the ends, and see if there is insulation off, or heat damage. ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 9:39pm
| Thanks. cables are brand new so maybe the solenoid. But, I suppose even new cables could have issues. Will check all. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 7:16am
| There is no solenoid so I would check battery cables first. MACK |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 9:21am
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If you have a flat belt pulley (on the right side to run an implement by belt), loosen the set screw, engage the pulley and, with the spark plugs removed, you should be able to turn the engine to feel when you are getting compression on the front cylinder. Then follow Doc's advice. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 7:48am
| Battery cables are new. I've seen the starter button on the starter referred to as a solenoid (maybe not the right term). Anyway, I'm wondering if the starter button is the issue. The starter itself was just rebuilt. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 8:29am
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(For your electric issues )You need to get a tester and check for voltage through the complete system ,then you will know where electric problem is . ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. Just because you do not have the tools for job , it dose not make it a bad design. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 3:24pm
| Will do. Thank you. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 8:34pm
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If you have power to the terminal on the starting button, try removing the button assembly and cleaning all the contacts inside, including the terminal on the starter, with emery cloth. The other place you could have a problem is where the ground cable bolts to the tractor. Remove the bolt and clean everything up. Unless you have starter problems, those are about the only places you could have a problem.
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Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 7:16am
| Sure appreciate your help. I'll do all of this over the weekend. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2020 at 9:50pm
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Electrical issue solved. Checked everything, but could not find a problem. Tried the starter and spun up as usual. I am unable to see the setscrew on the crankshaft pulley from either side without removing the cowling due to a power steering pump in the way. So, I tried the flywheel line up method. Jacked up right rear wheel and put it in 4th gear. I don't have a helper so I put a light plastic shopping bag over the #1 spark plug hole. Turned the wheel and watched the bag suck in on what I assumed was the intake stroke and then puff out. Stopped turning the wheel immediately and crawled under to push the flywheel around by hand. Found the first mark (I assumed was TDC) and pushed further to find the Fire mark. Found the next mark, but it did not have an "F". Still, I assumed it was the Fire mark. The impulse coupler was at the correct angle with the second mark aligned up exactly to the point on the flywheel housing. I turned the rotor to the number 1 mark and the mag installed nicely. Installed the plugs, connected the plug wires on the cap 1,2,4,3 clockwise starting from upper left and gave her a try. Only got a few very loud POPS and stopped trying, figuring I got something wrong. I am assuming I may have the impulse coupler off 180 degrees(?) Maybe the second mark on the flywheel wasn't the Fire mark after all. I'll try again next weekend and probably remove the cowling to try to see the setscrew on the crankshaft pulley. I'd appreciate you folks letting me know where I went wrong. Thank you.
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 6:52am
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Are you sure you have the timing marks inside the mag aligned? You can't be even one tooth off. http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo6.html" rel="nofollow - http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo6.html
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Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 8:31am
| I just got the mag back from the rebuild shop, so I'm just assuming it was aligned. They said all I had to do was time the mag to the motor to install it. I'll check out the link. Thank you. |
Posted By: mdm1
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 9:23am
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Here is another really good explanation of it. http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/magtiming/magtiming.htm" rel="nofollow - http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/magtiming/magtiming.htm ------------- Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK! |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 10:12am
| Just thinking out loud, and might be wrong. A plastic bag might suck in as the piston goes down on the power/firing stroke since both valves are closed and the volume is increasing as the piston goes down. It might puff out some as the piston comes up on the exhaust stroke as it doesn't offer the resistance your finger would over the hole. With those thoughts you could be 180 degrees out. Can you stick something for a plug in the hole that might need some real compression from the compression stroke to pop it out? Again just my thoughts for what they are worth. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:06am
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I'm thinking you are using the wrong timing mark on the flywheel. In your post above, you say: "Turned the wheel and watched the bag suck in on what I assumed was the intake stroke and then puff out. Stopped turning the wheel immediately and crawled under to push the flywheel around by hand. Found the first mark (I assumed was TDC) and pushed further to find the Fire mark. Found the next mark, but it did not have an "F". Still, I assumed it was the Fire mark. " "1. Set up the tractor with the "Fire" mark on the flywheel centered in the timing inspection opening when #1 piston is coming up on the compression stroke. The "Fire" mark is located 30 crank degrees before the "Center" mark at top dead center (TDC)" |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:52am
| Yeah, the bag sure did suck in fast and then popped. Good thing I had it well duct taped so it wouldn't get sucked down in the cylinder. I bet you're right, it could've puffed out on the exhaust stroke (it wasn't much of a puff). I can figure a better hilljack compression meter for the plug hole. Thanks. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 11:58am
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I am thinking you're right. I set the flywheel on the second mark instead of the first mark. The Fire mark would have been the first one that came around, based on your description and the link. Bottom line, as I understand it, you don't want to set the flywheel at TDC, you want it set on the Fire position when the piston is coming up for compression. Thank you!
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Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 2:32pm
| Did you check the internal timing setting of the mag to be sure it matches the mark you plan to use, as previously suggested? |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 4:06pm
| Have not, but will do. Thanks. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2020 at 9:59pm
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Thanks to the set screw method on the crankshaft pulley (centered at the bottom) I got the mag aligned properly and she fire right up. Engine sounded good so I did not fine time it. Ran for 45 minutes and would miss out on a cylinder occasionally, but didn't think much of it. The right about the 45 minute mark it started missing out more and popping. I got it back in garage and shut it down. Could the missing/popping be caused by no fine timing? Thought it was strange problems didn't start until it ran awhile. Would appreciate any ideas for trouble-shooting. Thanks for everyone's help in getting her going again. Now I just need to figure out what's causing the misfiring.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2020 at 10:02pm
| Bad coil in the magneto. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2020 at 8:29am
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It sounds to me like it's a problem that is related to something reaching a certain temperature or possibly a fuel restriction. Have you checked fuel flow at the carburetor? Doc is probably right. If you need a new coil, I usually get parts from Brillman. https://brillman.com/product/fairbanks-morse-fmj-fmx-magneto-coil/" rel="nofollow - https://brillman.com/product/fairbanks-morse-fmj-fmx-magneto-coil/
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Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2020 at 8:58am
| Thank you Doc and WF. I'll get on it next weekend. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2020 at 9:18am
| I prefer to diagnose the problem before throwing new parts on it. If it's the coil, the spark will be weak, very weak or maybe not at all. If it restarts cold, pull off a plug wire while running and see how far it will jump a spark to the engine block/head. When it warms up enough to start to falter, recheck and see if the spark intensity is the same or weaker. If you haven't had the coil replaced, it's a fairly good bet it needs it as this is what they do when they get old. |
Posted By: WDStudent
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 11:35am
| Thanks. The mag was just rebuilt last month, which included a new coil and points. I can still check the spark as Doc suggested, but would appreciate any other ideas. Thanks. |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 2:33pm
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Wasn't there a post about a collapsing hose or gas tank vent clog doing something like this to someone early last year?
------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 8:36pm
There are a lot of inferior Chinese made parts out there. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's good. I went through a bunch of condensors on one of my (distributor) WD45 a couple years ago. One wouldn't even start the tractor.
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