(a recent former AC product mgr - we were good friends- great guy who landed the tractor mktng job at White) he saw me and said oh "S--t"  , no one else knew us and there was a quite uneasy time til we both burst out laughing.  )

Poor jack - we did a walk through of the Coldwater plant ( we did not drink the sulphur water from the coolers) .. During the tour a fork lift dropped a huge deutz engine on the floor and it exploded - then the fork lift ran over it and almost overturned, the overhead paint rack was dripping paint from due to a curing fan that was not functioning thus dropping NI orange paint on tourist, the disc mower line was down waiting on parts and when we pulled back the curtain we found a poker game in progress and then on the tractor line the 'sick bay' was full and when they did the roll test on the end of the line on a large White tractor a line blew off and covered everyone in oil mist.  Jack just sat down, lowered his head and commence pounding it with his clip board.  He accused me of jinxing the day :-) ..   AGCO bought lines before we could sign the tractor contract ; we were already a NI dealer - we did sell a few of the White tractors.... AND I will state this again - I knew Jim Seaver of Agco - the money manager of the founders - he told me personally - Agco would have never grown - just held its own with a minute market share and then might not have survived - had they not acquired MF... this gave the company a Worldwide presence and dealers that they would have never had.  The ashes of the old AC company laid a foundation - that AGCO built upon - had it not been for AGCO - AC products would have had the fate of  Studebaker - a distant memory.   It all had to work together...

I heard Bob Ratliff tell of his first European meeting.  He had shieks, secretaries of state, a kinship of Matama Ghandi - a relation to Gaddafi of Lybia  (MF sold 16,000 trannys to Lybia yearly w/o engines - Muammar had a contract with Perkins)  Mr. Ratliff was blown away with the spider roots of MF and where they led at the time.  They cleaned the 'bleeding roots' very quickly  - as in IMT and other illegal copies of MF tractors/parts built in E. Europe.   

Quite a family tree.  

I was well out of the Farm Equipment Business when AGCO was born by consolidation of various farm equipment being merged into the AGCO tent.

I bough this book just to have obtained all the books MR SEINFORD WROTE.  I wrote to him to request his autographs on them.  I sent them to him and he graciously signed and returned them to me.  One of my prized possessions.

Hope someday these can be passed on for historical records.

I was pleased to meet MR SWINFORD at "Coming Home".  

Good Luck!

Bill Long

Boss Man wrote: Several companies White and Allis included after Duetz got tired of them got bought out to form Agco. Agco became the distributor for Massey parts until they were able to actually absorb Massey.  Agco wanted Massey for their transmission design. The last few years of the Agco tractors were Massey trans with a different engine.

I think you're confusing Massey and Fendt

The last few years of the AGCO tractor had a Fendt transmission and used the Sisu engine.  AGCO owns both these companies.  IMO the Massey transmission was a complete piece of junk.  It was used in the smaller frame Challenger, Agco, and Massey tractors, and after the Fendt purchase the smaller frame Challenger and Agco tractors could be fitted with the Fendt transmission but I believe it was long after that before the Massey was fitted with the Fendt transmission as the Massey wasn't considered their premium line. 

The larger frame AGCO Allis and AGCO White tractors were fitted with Funk transmissions till AGCO bought Fendt then shortly after that White went away and all the AGCO tractors were fitted with the Fendt transmission including the small frame but I believe the Massey transmission was still available on just the small frame Agco's and Challenger.

Then later the Agco brand was completely done away with and replaced by just the Challenger brand.  My guess was they kept the Cat dealership network and then tried to force Massey on all the old AC dealers that just sold AGCO tractors and Gleaner combines.  At least that was the claim my local dealer told me.  Luckily they were able to get the Challenger dealership because they new they had little to no chance to sell a Massey branded tractor.

I think this is pretty accurate I'm sure Tbran could give the exacts.

Dale I really don't understand why people care about the color, a product is a product, but out here in these parts most farmers absolutely will not have a Massey.  Strangely the last local equipment dealer to go out of business was the Massey dealer which also sold Ford cars and trucks.  At one time there was a lot of Massey equipment but today outside of Massey branded hay equipment it is almost non existent.  The majority of this area is either JD or CaseIH.  There is a fair amount of Gleaner combines around and Hesston hay equipment but that's the majority of the AGCO presence. 

I own a DT240a and a 545b Challenger both have CVT and I personally think that transmission is second to none.  Would I buy another AGCO tractor yes, do I care about what badge it has no, but I seem to be atypical as most farmers want a more "name brand" even if it's subpar. 

1. Robert Ratliff retired after reaching mandatory retirement age (a story there also)

2. Ed and John were killed in a plane crash - no relation to anyone

3. Agco did drop market share after dropping Agco tractors

4. The market share has been regained

5. Agco's market share in under 100 hp tractors has increased in higher %

   than any previous time in AGCO or MF or any AGCO heritage lines in the last 2 years

6. Agco - MF Fendt Challenger market share over 100 hp has increased almost every

   year in small per cent increases.

7. if one takes the industrial sales away from CNH  - world wide Agco is close to them 

   in AG sales.

 

IF one thinks there is some machine that puts out Green Red or whatever color machines, you are wrong - it is a group of people just like us that struggle every day to buy, build, sell , finance, service and collect the bills on ever  product that rolls out the doors of plants around the world and are transported worldwide as well.  Farmers buy from local dealers who are there to support them in time of need unless they are capable of working miracles themselves when things go wrong.  Yes one can go to machinery pete or fastline occasionally and that's ok.  But to think one can 'punish' a brand by trading off a piece of machinery in spite is a very naïve immature action.  If a producer can better himself by going to a different brand then by all means do it.  That usually means that a relationship has been broken  with the local dealer who had supported the customer for years - like Tip O'neal  said all politics are local.  Deere is mentioned here  = Deere sold its sole to the corporate stockholder devil a few years ago when it FORCED out GOOD single store dealers. I have friends who were Deere dealers who had corp sales vp's come to their house and tell them if one spouse or dad passed the contract would be taken and given to the mega dealer -and they did and have nation wide with few exceptions - so much for caring individually for the customer or family owned dealership.  Say what you will about Agco , but when a customer has an issue - there is a high per cent of resolution if the customer is reasonable  and wants to work with them- from major issues to nit picking stuff  - we deal with it daily.  This goes for the small guys too, not just the big time operators... Agco is not perfect, ha, I uh discuss, with them daily over issues. Within reason we have taken care of customer issues down through the years to the customers satisfaction with very few exceptions, and that is from AC to DA to MF..... and yes there are still a few old AC guys with Agco. 

Couldn't have said it better. 

As a side note, it is my understanding, that the Challenger tractors, will be transitioned to actual Fendt's painted yellow. It will be interesting to see how agco pulls that one off, because we all know how prohibitively expensive it is to have two paint lines.

Now there is something to color loyalty, irrational as it is, when you think about it. Fiat never would have done as well with Ford, if they had styled their new tractors as Fiats. What they did was kept the Ford name a few years, then slowly changed the name to New Holland, and still to this day have the Ford colors. Most Ford people are now New Holland (Fiat) people, and they never knew they changed.

Both CaseIH, and New Holland embrace their heritage. Where as agco denies/distance themselves from their heritage, and seem down right embarrassed by it.

I would agree.

Case did everything right when they bought IH, Deutz did everything wrong when they bought Allis and Agco followed their lead. [/QUOTE]

I think the guys on the 'Red' board might disagree with this.

Deutz is what killed anything that was left of AC. They didn't want anything but the North American dealer network. When they finally figured out that nobody wanted their green tractors, no matter how many dealers they had, and even if they put "Allis" over "Fahr", they were ready to unload. Also, another thing that screwed everything up is that the buyers didn't get the rights to the AC name or logos. 

By the time Deutz was ready to unload, there wasn't anything left of the AC design to build upon. 

I think the guys on the 'Red' board might disagree with this.

Ok, saying they did everything right, might be a stretch. But, there are a lot more orange farms, that are now a completely different color, then there are red farms, that have switched colors. So they must have done something right.

Along the way I think AGCO has made some stupid moves.  Tbran had that same opinion when they dropped the orange tractor, but his living comes from selling AGCO equipment, and he has to support their way of doing things.  He can't express his true opinion, at least not on a public forum.  The fact of the matter is that the A-C name was not available for purchase, at least at an economically feasible level, so there was no way to move back towards that image.  

Many of the anti-orange things AGCO has done only makes sense if it became questionable from a legal standpoint for them to continue to show credence to A-C.  I truly believe they were forced to move away from orange and Allis from a legal standpoint.

All that being said, I was a 100% A-C farm through the 1990's.  Now the only orange thing I have is a D-14 parked in the barn for nostalgia reasons.  I moved on to other colors not because AGCO got away from A-C but because AGCO has zero dealer presence in my area.  You can't sell equipment to progressive farm operations if you don't have a dealer presence, period.

I don't think anybody was spewing hatred towards old A-C guys that still work there. I think it just pisses off the old die hards (myself included) how AGCO suddenly forgot their heritage and are now embarrassed by it, and are changing the facts about where the company name is derived from, among other things.

Having said that, this is an Allis-Chalmers enthusiast forum and yes, we are going to complain about the direction AGCO is going, because we all have some sort of strong connection to A-C. Whether it's growing up driving one, owning a dealership, riding on the toolbox or whatever, we don't like seeing the last remnants of the company heritage being flushed down the crapper never to be seen again. Allis Gleaner Company, Orange paint, the triangle logo resembling the old AC, and Gleaner combines are all we had to cling to. Now the Gleaner name is threatened, barely mentioned on the AGCO website. These young people think AGCO means "your agriculture company"  but we know better.

Ok I'm jumping off the soapbox now, sorry for the long rant.

Anyway, I just bought a White tractor and was very happy when I could look up part numbers on AGCO parts book for a two year production tractor. Awesome support. 

D-F tractors?

Anyhow, I know there are a lot of good people working at AGCO and a lot of good dealers doing their best but I think AGCO at the top has little respect for the American farmer when they came with the excuse that they needed to reduce down to two brands so the most popular brand in the US, AGCO Allis, had to go because having 3 paint colors was too expensive. That is a story that I'll never swallow. Here is why, because at the that same time period AGCO was introducing more and more brands and you could get a Valtra in any color you wanted....... except orange. Now I know when I go to an auto paint store red is usually the highest priced paint, I'd like to hear an argument that it isn't, and AGCO has sooooo many brands and soooooo many different colors of equipment, so explain again why AGCO Allis had to go? I mean really let me hear why. Not why it shouldn't matter because it's the same tractor, not why I'm too small to matter, and especially I don't want to be told how I'm not loyal to my dealer, I am. I still own nearly all AGCO supported products but I'm driving further and further for parts.

I feel bad for my local dealers to see what AGCO has done to them. Forcing them to sell a red headed stepchild where there is no interest in Massey. Not even giving them a chance at becoming a Challenger dealer, which at least had some appeal because of it's former ties to Cat, all because one very big organization in our state claims all rights to sell Challenger. This big dealer network focuses on construction equipment is killing the market for Challenger because they are used to construction work hours and so because of that and the distance for most to travel to a Challenger dealer there are few Challengers are sold. And my dealer can't get a contract to sell Challenger because of some deal between this big outfit and AGCO. If it weren't for Gleaner my local dealers, I am certain, would be gone, relegated to independent repair shops or lawn and garden sales at best. Allis Chalmers may be responsible for bringing down Allis Chalmers but who is responsible for my local dealers struggling for the past 20 years? Certainly not Allis Chalmers.

Deutz-Fahr. Ik there is a dealer in ohio (Sutter Bros?). They are trying to make a presence again in the US since the Duetz-Allis days. From what I hear they are cheaper than a FENDT but still one of those Euro-style deals. Not sure if they are catching on or not Im not close enough to that dealer to see any. Our local AGCO dealer (15 minutes up the road) also sells New Holland tractors. They have sold quite a few Masseys and gleaner combines. They have always sold a lot of gleaners but I think Massey sales are going up. 

Daehler, I think you nailed it.

Hey John, what does Prospect Impl sell now days? Their former branch store Hammonds still around? What they sell? When I was at Prospect in the 89-93 span, they were having trouble getting along, and I'd heard after I moved to IL, they split them up completely. 

Ed, Hammonds are long gone, I'd forgotten about them until you mentioned it.  Prospect is now run by Tim Altergott although I see his dad, Don,there most every time I stop in.  Tim's Grandsons Justin and Jared Ewing are now working there.  I haven't stopped in in over a year but stopped in front of the store after hours last September to tighten up the chains on a hay rake I was hauling.  Tim drove out and waved.

The lot is filled with lots of red tractors now, MF's.  They are still Versatile dealers and had a couple on the lot.  Also sell Sunflower, McDon, Crustbuster, Great Plains drills,and Rhino mowers.  I need to go out there soon and get some new plow shears for my IHC 642 spinner plow as they have a great selection of plow parts.  Even had some that fit my AC 3 bottom spinner.  Can't find moldboards for AC's anymore though.  They still stock a lot of Oliver parts, must have a deal with AGCO for parts.  Need to see if they have parts for my MM 670 ampha torque unit.  You can check them out at prospectimplement.com  BTW, I need to send you the injector pump from my 190 XT with the broken drive shaft, along with the injectors for repair.

Same built some neat looking engines, but never the serviceability or quality of Deutz IMHO.   ( you could pull a piston out of a Deutz w/o pulling pan - not so with SAME)

Side note -

While we were struggling with the Deutz-Allis tractors went to Louisville NFMS and met Bob MCelrath who was the tractor marketing manage for tractors at the time.  He took me to the SAME display and we meet with the Italian rep for them.  They had 1. an orange tractor - 2.  a tranny with plenty of speeds 3. a syncro-shuttle 4. some good looking cab tractors over 100 hp 5. a competitive price and SIX promises of a power shift from 80 hp up - all kinds of new technology - and higher hp units to come.  Now it wasn't perfect, but the promises were exciting.  We went back and sat down with James Seaver (agco founder) and did a sales pitch on him to save us from the pea green - non selling - units.  The readers digest version is the Agco_Allis orange tractors.  We got the tractors in - and found out they were not truthful in their long term promises.  We sold over 200 of the SAMEs.  The 4600's were ok the 5600 's were really good. The early 6600 were horrible except the 6690 non cabs which we never ran a warranty claim on. The first tractors they shipped us were rejects and non - updated units they had setting around.  They denied it but when we fussed at Jim Peterson about the specs - he dug out the orders and found the narrow 18" tires were not what he ordered.  Sherwood Wheeler finally stripped out a wiring harness, figured out what was wrong and too light (Europe uses no air conditioners) and went to Treviglio Italy to straighten them out. The updated versions were 99% better - but they were at the end of the relationship and few came over . Also at this time many dealers had given up trying to sell them anyway.

The electronic govern'd 8600 s were new and customers didn't accept this technology that we ahead of the market - deere should have had one first - ha.

Every first units sold were taken back and reworked and the customers were given new units at little or no cost!  I think a few Agco guys went over and did the mafia impersonation to the SLH guys.. anyway we took all the change outs we could get - did the updates on some and had a low hour unit with warranty at a super price - and they sold... some dealers hated them - we were willing to put up with the issues and fix them - and still have almost all we sold still running performing well - but it was a miserable journey.  The power shift never came as the high hp units.  Who was it that said trust but verify .... we should have verified what we were getting.