I have been talking with the Nelson Muffler Co. (Nelson Global Products) for the past couple weeks about producing a run of obsolete mufflers. I chose the oval muffler for a 170 Gas tractor to try to get produced. The reason I chose the 170 gas muffler (A-C #249324) is because it is extremely close, in dimensions, to the late D17 oval muffler (246129), the 170/175 diesel muffler (250049), D19 gas muffler (246130), and 180/185 muffler (248883). And therefore would require very little modification to fit one of the above tractors. Granted, i'm sure the differences are supported by reason, but this solution is a compromise because ordering a production run for each of the 5 different mufflers wouldn't be feasible. I have drawn schematics for the mufflers so you can see how close they are. I will be working with a local shop to get the mufflers modified with a different input pipe diameter and output pipe diameter if necessary for the different applications.

Nelson ultimately said they would be willing to make a production run of 100 mufflers of the A-C #249324. I spoke to them this morning and they are going to get back to me with a cost per muffler and a confirmation that they still have the tooling to make them.

The Nelson for WD45/D17 I can get for $125, so I estimate the cost for this newer oval one at around $200 per muffler. A run of 100 mufflers at $200 per muffler is more than most can afford, so it boils down to this: I need to get orders for 70-75 mufflers to go through with this order.

This post is just to get the word out that there might be light at the end of the tunnel for these mufflers. Do you think that I can get the 70-75 orders necessary? Would you be okay with putting this muffler on a D19 or 175 diesel if it was modified to have the proper inlet and outlet pipes? Keep in mind the oval body size and baffles will be of the specs of the muffler that I will have produced. Any comments, suggestions, ideas, etc.  are valued from members with more experience and wisdom than me

Just had a customer ask if there were any available the other day.

 

Jim

 

Alex, my suggestion is make all the bases 2 3/8" and then supply a bushing to slip over the pipe on the manifold. 

  I bought a cheap stanely muffler off Ebay one time and it was for a 170/175 diesel muff...  I made a bushing for it and slipped over manifold pipe and then slipped the muffler over that and been on for many years... and the 2.25 od top side didn't really change the sound that much...Figured the engine breathed easier.   Suppose Nelson would make them out of Stainless steel? might sound tinnier and turn blue but... might not rust out ever again.

 Tracey, some were... some were put on to the front and some were put on towards the back and then they had the center ones too...  Our 170 was to the back... my uncles was to the front... and the neighbors IV was to the front...

And the series IV...

The 180/185 mufflers and D15/D17 diesel mufflers are also close in dimensions and I might be able to offer them also.

I know that some mufflers originally had the offset such as D17 gas, 170 gas, 180/185 tractors.  I am NOT 100% sure that any of the oval mufflers originally had centered outlets, D17/D15 diesel maybe, 170/175 diesel maybe.

I do know it boils down to which tooling and dies Nelson still has on hand. If they have the offset dies, thats what they will make. If they have the tooling for the centered outlets, it is what it is.

While I will be modifying the diameter of the inlet and outlet, I do not think I will be modifying the LOCATION of the oulets. I also do not think I will be changing the length/height of the oval body, which means that if your tractor had the oval body that is a different height than 16", it MIGHT NOT sound exactly like one from the 60's even though the inlet and outlet diameters will be modified for the application. I want to be up front with everyone, so no one is expecting something different.

For example: the D15 series II muffler has a body length of 12.5" and inlet/outlet dia. of 1.75". I can change the inlet and outlet pipes to 1.75" but since the body is 16" long on the mufflers that are getting ordered, it won't get changed to the 12.5" that it is supposed to be. Since that is so far off (3.5") I won't be offering a D15 muffler since it would obviously be noticably different.

The 170/175 diesel muffler body is 18" long, which is only 2" longer than the body of the  170/175 gas muffler i hope to order. That would be an okay compromise for most folks I hope because, like I said before, it is not feasable order 100 each of 5 different mufflers to offer perfectly original ones for each tractor. 

Alex, "I am NOT 100% sure that any of the oval mufflers originally had centered outlet"

 From looking at pictures in old allis lit.,  they had outlets in the center too for many of the tractors... Have a few pics with the outlet almost on the edge and ran across one picture where the outlet is just a bit offset just enough to miss the center pipe. Almost like some of these muffs were in the experimental stages.

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Thanks Tracy- So you are saying I should consider getting a run of 100 mufflers for every different application? like 100 of late D17/170/175 gas, 100 of D15 series II gas, 100 of D15/D17 Diesel, 100 of 180/185, 100 of D19, and 100 of 170/175 diesel.

In a perfect world that would work. Of course the Nelson Muffler Co. would have to have the tooling/dies for these also. But if they did have the tooling, I can see this happening one of 3 ways:

a)   I get enough preorders, like 70-75 of each style muffler, and then have Nelson make a run of 100 in each design. And if I can't get the 70-75 orders, then contact some parts suppliers if they would buy some?

b)   I take each style muffler one at a time. First do the late D17/170/175 gas style (seems to be the most popular), get the orders, pay for the 100 mufflers, and deliver the orders. Then do the next style D15/D17 diesel for example. And don't do my current "modify the inlet/outlet to application" style of current thinking

But to think I can sell 70-75 of each style muffler might be pushing it. That would be 600 mufflers at once, unless I did one style at a time. And even then, the odd ones like D15 series 2 gas, and D19- My personal opinion is I don't think I could get 75 orders for those specific mufflers, which means only the more popular mufflers would go through I would kind of like to give choice "b" a try though. That would save the extra dicking around cost of modifing the inlet/outlet pipes.

I am sure on the 175 diesel now, my original operator's manual has a pic with the centered outlet. I also remember seeing a d17 diesel muffler at Alex (wi)'s stand at the Union Grove GOTO this past september- I believe that muffler had a centered outlet.

So to summarize what I have observed as the consensus here:

1)  If the original muffler had an offset, only new mufflers with the offset would be worth getting made.

2)  If the original muffler did not have an offset, it would still be worth getting made because it outlasts the Stanley and has the "Nelson- Music to the ear" sound

 example: Nobody would buy a new Nelson for there D17 series IV gas if it has a centered exhaust outlet, even if it sounded like a Nelson

Alex, From various pieces of literature, I see BOTH the offset and center mufflers used on the D17 IV, 170 and the 175, both gas and diesel... and most of them had center pipes in the pics...

 So... center pipes would be just as correct as the offset pipes... just the fact I know our 170 gas came with offset to the rear

  Guess I would find out what dies/tooling Nelson has left and figure it from there.

Thanks Tracy- So you are saying I should consider getting a run of 100 mufflers for every different application? like 100 of late D17/170/175 gas, 100 of D15 series II gas, 100 of D15/D17 Diesel, 100 of 180/185, 100 of D19, and 100 of 170/175 diesel.

In a perfect world that would work. Of course the Nelson Muffler Co. would have to have the tooling/dies for these also. But if they did have the tooling, I can see this happening one of 3 ways:

a)   I get enough preorders, like 70-75 of each style muffler, and then have Nelson make a run of 100 in each design. And if I can't get the 70-75 orders, then contact some parts suppliers if they would buy some?

b)   I take each style muffler one at a time. First do the late D17/170/175 gas style (seems to be the most popular), get the orders, pay for the 100 mufflers, and deliver the orders. Then do the next style D15/D17 diesel for example. And don't do my current "modify the inlet/outlet to application" style of current thinking

But to think I can sell 70-75 of each style muffler might be pushing it. That would be 600 mufflers at once, unless I did one style at a time. And even then, the odd ones like D15 series 2 gas, and D19- My personal opinion is I don't think I could get 75 orders for those specific mufflers, which means only the more popular mufflers would go through I would kind of like to give choice "b" a try though. That would save the extra dicking around cost of modifing the inlet/outlet pipes.

Clay wrote: Price of the round Nelson mufflers for a D-17?

The WD45 gas & diesel and early D17 Nelson mufflers are still available. This muffler (pn 229531) fits WD45 gas/diesel tractors and D17 gas tractor up to serial #24001. I sell this muffler for $135 + shipping. Like Pat said another member Rick Corder has them also. Rick is in Missouri, I am in Wisconsin, so Rick would be closer to you in KS.

edit-added pic

DrAllis wrote: I've got some dimensions from a 180/185 OEM muffler. Total overall height is 36 inches. A 15 inch tailpipe, a 3 inch inlet pipe and an 18 inch main body. The outlet pipe is 2 1/4" I.D. and the inlet pipe is 2 3/8" I.D.   I'll try and get a D-17 series 4 muffler measurement tomorrow. I do know for sure that the tailpipe on the S-3 and S-4 is smaller in diameter than the 170-175. I think it's 1 7/8" while the 170-175 are 2 inches.

Thanks for getting some original measurements Dr! I will add that to my notes! From my research I believe the original D17 outlet pipe is 7.75" long and has an O.D. of 1 5/8". The original 170/175 gas mufflers outlet pipe is 15 3/8" long and has an O.D of 1 7/8" (Thank you GreenOrange for 170 specs). Will wait to see if your measurements confirm the late D17 gas muffler sizes.

I don't have any D17d/D19 specs so if someone has those I will be interested to hear them. Would be awesome if D15d/D17d and D19gas/diesel were the same or similar, I could combine those into the same run of 100.

THE NELSON MUFFLERS ARE COMING!!!

I decided to go with mufflers for the late D17 gas tractors ser#42000+. These are the original style with offset outlet. The 3rd pic in JC(WI)'s post on the first page shows what these mufflers will look like. Dr Allis's post above states the dimensions. And, wait it gets better! My estimated price above was $200 per muffler, but these will be only $157 per muffler!!!!!!! :) I will post an add in the classifieds with more details for those who want these for their D17 gassers.

I would like to thank those who responded and voiced their opinions. Getting that input helped me to decide in what direction I will go with these mufflers. This run will be the D17 oval gas muffler only. If this goes well, I would like to order another Nelson muffler run for a different model tractor, perhaps the D15 or D17 diesel muffler or the 170/175 gas muffler (which is slightly different than this D17 one). Please give me your feedback on which Nelson muffler I should try next!

That sounds a little barbaric IMO  . A little like a square peg into a round hole ??

Alex, what happened to your first diagram picture?

 Was kinda hoping the 170 would have been the chosen muffler and the height of the exhaust pipe could be cut off to desired length. But a fellow could slip another pipe over if he really wanted to get the ex. up higher.

Lonn, I wouldn't use a torch, that would warp the metal... but a plasma cutter would maybe do the job in a sweet order, providin the hand is steady.

AllisFreak MN wrote: Back to the original subject of this post, Great job by Alex convincing Nelson to produce another round of the elusive original D17 oval mufflers. One question for you Alex; I assume they will be painted black as were the originals?

Yes, the paperwork from the company states:    FINISH: O-02497 BLACK PAINT

JC- I deleted my sketched drawings because I had used measurements off the stanley mufflers and they are not the same as the Nelson measurements.

Although I didn't choose the 170/175 gas muffler for this run, I am leaning toward ordering that one next, unless a different muffler would be in higher demand.

off brand muffs are inferior.

... Hope Nelson put the same quality as original or better into the new Nelson mufflers.

I thought D19 diesels had a stright pipe from the factory! Thanks Dr Allis for confirming!

JC- The paperwork Nelson sent me for the D17 muffler was dated 1962, they will go by those specs when they manufacture the mufflers. They still had most of the tooling, but a couple dies were either missing or worn out so they had to replace those. So I would think the quality would be the same for these new ones.

It isn't a need,it's a desire. If you ran tractors with a Nelson and then any brand X (other that a Walker WD-WD45) you would know the answer. If you ran a D17 with the oval Nelson,you would really appreciate at the end of a day of plowing. If you think a crap Stanley sounds fine ,you wouldn't understand. It's all about the sound.

We put an oval on a series 2 D17.  We used a saber saw on the hood. That was our main field reactor back then.  It was much better for our ears.

We still have that D17 but do not use it much.  The muffler is still pretty good but I will buy a new one from you and put it in storage until needed.

Our gas D17, series 2 if I recall, had a round muffler and ran MANY hours pulling a 4/16 semi mount plow . To my knowledge, I can still hear today without "hearing aids" LOL!!

When dad made a "supposed" upgrade to a gasser  D19,that's the first we had been around an oval  muffler. Not a fair comparison in decibles as I suppose the 2 extra cylinders in the '19 might come into play  . I thought maybe it was a "correct" muffler to be hailed by the trailer queen/parade people for shows.

I still can't fathom the idea of cutting somewhat large holes in a hood for the sake of "sound". Thanks though for your insight.

Yea, constant ringing in the ears and everybody mumbles and can't here anyone I am talking to if there are any other people talking at the same time... Sucks and I don't hear crickets when I am even looking at them.  that sucks for others, they hear them dang crickets an it doesn't drive me nuts... but I hear the continual squeal of tinnitus hour after hour and that is no fun.

   Difference between the round muffler D17 and the 170 oval muffler was a day and night difference, you could hear the fan on the engine of the 170 instead of the crackle off the pipe on the D17/WD45.

And on the old D17 Diesel with a straight pipe, you had to wear ear plugs and ear muffs when it was working hard.

To answer your question with a simple straight answer: There is no NEED for the nelson muffler. We CHOOSE the Nelson muffler over the other options because Nelson's are the best of 3 worlds:

1. FUNCTION: They muffle the tractor exhaust better than a stanley or a straight pipe, just as toilet paper wipes your butt better than a bolt.

2. SOUND: Nelson mufflers have a unique sound compared to a Stanley. A lot of our forum members grew up on Allis tractors that had Nelson mufflers, so when they hear the "nelson sound" it is comforting. Just as you would rather hear your favorite song come on the radio, instead of your least favorite song.

3. QUALITY: Nelson mufflers last longer than the stanley ones. Either because the steel is thinner, joints are weaker, or because the paint/coating they use is inferior. Just as a steel roof lasts longer than a shingle roof.

Now there are some people who don't care about the above points. If you don't care about an item performing a task better than another item, and have complete indifference to the sound a muffler makes, and if you could care less about buying parts with a longer lifespan than others, the Nelson muffler is not for you.

Now since I have answered your question sir, would it be too much to ask for you to answer mine?: Which Nelson muffler would you like to see available next?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH !! That's the type of answer I was seeking !! I applaude your tenacity to get a MAJOR manufacturer "on-board" to produce a discontinued product  .

To answer your ??, we run a '68 gasser 180 with an oval muffler that we replaced 15 years ago with a NAPA supplied muffler. This tractor is NEVER going to see WOT use for the rest of her days; planting/bush hog/auger duty only . Again, THANKS for the definitive reasons, greatly appreciated !!

I will be 54 on the 27'th of this month, never said hearing loss was funny . What's getting my hearing is the routers that we use on residential job sites. Would still LOVE to run a straight CHROME pipe on the XT 190 diesel pulling the White 18' disk though, it came with and has had a black,round muffler on it(don't ask me the brand) since we have owned it 

 

 X2

I had some time today to run numbers on the potential market with each model of tractor. Now the following numbers are just my BEST GUESS, and are based off my own observations in my part of WI, and the calls i've made when I researched the D17 oval muffler. So these numbers possibly would be different in other parts of the USA. I do need to point out that during my research for the nelson mufflers, the consensus is that 99% of guys who use their tractors for farming or who work their tractors, will not fork out the additional money for a Nelson muffler and will instead put a stanley on and keep working.

D10, D12, D14, and D15 series I gas tractors that used muffler A-C #227240/233450: Total made is 47,150.

Out of the total, I guess 50% are still floating around not in a salvage yard, or scrapped. Which makes the total remaining: 23,575.

Out of those tractors, I guess 75% are non-working tractors or restored which might get a Nelson muffler. So the number of prospective Neslon muffler buyers is 17,681.

D19 Gas tractors that used muffler A-C #246130 total production was 7000

50% are still floating around not in a salvage yard, or scrapped: 3500

I guess 75% of those are not working tractors, which might get a Nelson. So D19 Nelson muffler prospective buyers: 2625

D17 Late GAS tractors total using muffler A-C#246129: 39000

50% not in salvage yard/scrapped: 19,500

60% non working tractors/ potential Nelson buyers: 11,700

D17 late Diesel tractors total using muffler A-C #237290: 7990

50% not in salvage/scrapped: 3995

75% non working tractors/potential nelson buyers: 2996 <-----\

                                                                                             \

D15 Series II Diesel tractors using muffler A-C #237290: 1100     |

50% not in salvage yards/scrapped: 550                                    /

90% non working tractors/potentail nelson buyers: 495+ 2996--/ (same muffler) =3491

D15 Series II Gas tractors using muffler A-C #237290: 11,300

50% not in salvage yards/scrapped: 5650

75% non working tractors/potential nelson buyers: 4237

D15 series I Diesel Tractors using muffler A-C #234493: 950

50% not in salvage yards/scrapped: 475

90% do not work for a living and are collector owned/potential nelson buyers: 427 <

                                                                                                                        \

D17 early diesel tractors using muffler A-C # 234493: 6075                                    |

50% are not in salvage yards/scrapped: 3037                                                        |

90% are collector owned/non-working tractors/potential nelson buyers: 2734+427--/ (same muffler) =3161

170/175 Diesel tractors using muffler A_C #250049: 8500

70% are not in salvage/scrapped: 5950

30% are collector owned/not used as a farm tractor: 1785

170/175 Gast tractors using muffler A-C #249324: 6000

70% are not in salvage yards/scrapped: 4200

50% are not used for farm work/potential nelson buyers: 2100

180/185 tractors (gas or Diesel) using muffler A-C #248883: 27000

50% are not in salvage yards/scrapped: 13,500

30% are collector owned/non-working tractors/potential Nelson buyers: 4050

I could use more data so please continue to chime in if you would be interested in a nelson muffler for a certain tractor. THANK YOU for everyone's responses so far!!!  

Thanks Lonn for that !! That was my original "CRINGE", guys wanting to blast holes in I would assume perfectly good/straight hoods for the sake of what another poster said- TONE.

Often times, a working tractor may encounter and occasional low hanging branch, on  the edge of a field.

I can my mufflers with tin cans.  I can reach the can from the ground.  If the muffler were to be extended, it would be difficult to can and un-can the muffler.

A guy can do whatever they want. It was just a suggestion and IH had done that very thing for years right out of the box. Myself, I avoid low hanging branches these day. Nothing grows under them anyhow.

One of my brothers has an older D17 that someone did a very nice job of cutting an oval in the hood and it is a very quiet tractor and nice to drive. I use to use that tractor a lot cutting hay or baling. I also used to help the neighbor who had a 560 and 706 that were used for the same tasks and I don't remember ever having a problem with the taller muffler.

On another note, when I was a kid and I had been cultivating with Dad's D17, I went to park it where he usually did at the end of the day under a shade tree, I hooked the muffler on a branch and broke the manifold. Dad was not pleased. And that was the standard series II large diameter round muffler that did not stick up in the air like an IH. So it is whether or not that you are careful or careless, that is the factor that determines if you hook a tall or short muffler on something.

Just saw a post on the FB allis group about late D17 Nelsons and the WC/WD style nelsons being available and immediately thought of this topic.

Kind of stoked to have the original WD available, as one of mine has the WD-45 manifold (and I have a Nelson for it), but now I can get a Nelson for my older manifold and get rid of my crappy third stanley.

Nelson mufflers for the WD/WD45 and early D17 have always been available through AGCO.  Both of my WD45s have them and sound right.

garden guy was talking about me having the original WC/WD style muffler (219534) available, as well as the WD45/d17 style muffler (229531). The older WD/WC one has a longer outlet and mounts different. Both have the rain skirt, but 229531 has the rain skirt extended for the mounting holes.

Yep! This is awesome. I'll be hitting you up soon to order one of the WC/WD mufflers.

Easiest way to contact you to order via FB? Or give you a call during the week?