To restore or not? Vote here...
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=165021
Printed Date: 29 Apr 2024 at 7:12am
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Topic: To restore or not? Vote here...
Posted By: DSeries4
Subject: To restore or not? Vote here...
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 8:53pm
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Long post... Fresh out of a barn where it sat untouched for many many years. This is a ONE OWNER 1964 D15 Series II. The original owner is now in a nursing home and the son inlaw has commissioned my brother and I to get it running properly and fix the many little mechanical issues it has. He had asked us to restore it, but I told him earlier that good originals like this are hard to find. He is not looking to sell it or flip for a profit, but has not decided what he is going to do with it. Here is where you fine folks come in. This thing is pretty much a time capsule. 100% Complete, unmolested and preserved. It was mainly used to pull a big orchard sprayer - never seen it hooked up to anything else when we were growing up. Sat outside every day in the summers, but stored inside in the winters. Looking it over, there are things that would need to be done that would hurt the orginality - one front rim needs to be replaced due to leaking calcium (yes, the fronts are loaded), one rear rim needs patching for the same reason, needs new tie rods, rear wheel eccentrics are seized, decals are extremely faded, bottoms of the fenders have rust coming through, seat pan has some rot and the tool box is falling apart. What do do: 1. Fix the problems and leave it alone, regardless of how it looks. 2. Fix the problems and just paint the wheels and new seat pan. 3. Fix the problems and do a complete cosmetic restoration. He has seen all our tractors and loves the quality of our work, it would take a lot of time and money, but that is not a problem for him - he is very well off. From my point of view, it would take a lot of time away from my own tractors that I want to restore - I have never completed one in under a year! Secondly, I have no idea how much to charge for our labor - I have never done work for anyone else. Enough of my yacking, I know you all want to see pictures ...    Love this font hitch, looks professionally done. Did AC ever make one?   ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Replies:
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 9:34pm
| Wow that's neat. Fix the issues and let him in joy the tractor as is. Can always restore in the future. Can't unrestore it |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 9:43pm
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For me, the gauges might get replaced. Ours has a pretty face plate for me to rest in. The metal has turns in it to caught the light and the operators eye. ------------- 2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 9:45pm
True, a tractor can be restored time after time, but it's only original once. I'd fix what needs fixing, then wax it and call it good! 
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 5:54am
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MAn , I'm sittin on the fence on this. Yes, it's only original once but....once you start 'fixin lil stuff, like decals and rims, well it's a slippery slope of 'while I'm at it..best to replace this, cleanup that, splash of paint here,.....' Sure, when you replace the gauges, you'll HAVE to sand/clean,prime,paint the inst panel, new bolts, gee ,wiring should be replaced.....see.. slippery slope... What I WOULD do before turning a wrench is take 200-250 pictures 'asis', from every side, every angle, under the hood,from the seat, etc. Copy onto flashdrive as well as one of those 'digital picture frames'. That I'd give to the owner, who'se in a home. As for what to charge,see what pro repair shops charge,up here everyone is at least $100/hr.,so I'd say $50/hr. As you say, every hr working on his tractor is another hour lost not working on yours so $20-$25/hr isn't good for you and we all know TIME is the one thing we're all running out of. I'm now leaning more to a decent restore, fix all teh little things and a GOOD paint job, making it look 'factory fresh' NOT 'trailer queen show quality' but a tractor you WOULD work in the fields, then hose off later. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: B26240
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:14am
| I say restore whether you do it or someone else. rusted out fenders and poor gauges are enough to sway me not to mention the steering wheel and rims etc, etc. I wonder what the engine and transmission condition are? A good place to start would be to get it running and access all issues, estimate how many hrs. you think the work will take and talk it over with the son to see if he wants to proceed. MHO. Mark |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:31am
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I do like good original tractors the best and they save a lot of money. This one is nice and straight. I'm leaning towards repairing the defects including new gauges but not the tach. I'd repair the rims and paint the wheels. In the normal coarse of ownership, its reasonable to do on going repairs. Fenders and paint can wait if ever. What is that sitting behind it ????? LOL ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:34am
| That's a nice looking tractor,hopefully it doesn't take much to get it running. Can someone tell me how the pulley is engaged please? I have never been around one that functions (or attatched for that matter), is it with the pto lever ? Thanks and hope it goes well for the OP |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:40am
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For me I am kind of 'on the fence' for doing a total paint job. It has a lot of rusty spots that need paint. For sure all 4 wheels and rims need doing. With 5444 hours on it I would first do a compression test to get an idea about the engine condition. That rusty oil filter looks like it has been on there for quite some time. Wonder what's the reason for the 'flat bar' across the face of the front axle. Gary |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:59am
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To me, looking at this Tractor (for what I can see) would be a good candidate for a semi-resto. What I mean by that is, some of the sheetmetal like fenders, toolbox aren't good, but if the running gear in it is good, (engine runs good, no tranny problems,) you wouldn't have to go into them. Clean up the drivetrain, fix what needs fixing, renew the gauges, wheels, and whatever and give it one of your nice paint jobs you guys always do and I would think the owner would be happy as a clam. This would keep the cost factor down for him, keep the time factor down for you guys, and still allow you guys to make a few bucks while having fun doing the Tractor. You guys do super work. If the guy is pretty well off, I wouldn't think he would mind spending some dough on his Dad's Tractor.... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:59am
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First, define 'restore'. that means many things to many people. Second, it is not your tractor to decide. That being said, either way will not make an appreciable difference in the value of the tractor, except that there will be a lot more money invested into it in a restoration, and there will never be a financial return on that. It comes down to the pleasure of the owner. If the owner wishes it restored, then it should get restored, what ever that means. And the meaning of 'restored' discussed with the owner prior going forth in that direction. What I would consider doing first is a good cleaning and perhaps rubbing out the Sheetmetal and waxing. LOL, that could go either way....'wow, that looks nice the way it is', or 'dang! after cleaning and waxing, all those little nicks and dents really show up!" I have a CA in about the same condition, maybe even a little better, that I bought from an estate, and I am fighting the same question. I am of the 'original' crowd myself, but, of course, fix that which needs fixed, just like any other day in it's life. MHO ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:05am
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I think it what his preferences are and what you want to do with your time. I would dang sure give him a down and dirty estimate though for going either way. As fr as that pulley goes, I think you yank the knob that shows up to the lower right of the tach.
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Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:13am
| I'd vote for a full on restoration! Them D15's are sooooooo purdy when they shine like a diamond! Darrel |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:19am
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Dseries4, I will give comments but they will be on both sides of the fence. Original once yes. But double check closely was it ever repainted a long time ago? A lot of them were. If so then you can strike the its still original thing. I see something I dont understand, maybe the D series experts can answer? Why are the D15 stickers still in fair condition and the hood decals are almost non read able? Were they made from different material from the factory? I doubt it? Was the hood from a different tractor? Ok on repairs. I get something like this home as mine and I want to get into it and fix things to working condition. Not being yours your going to have to get a real good idea from the son on what to fix and what not to? New parts stick out like a sore thumb. Full restore for me would be at least a year at my pace. It sure would be a nice one when done for sure. I think most of us like the D15. Cost would be estimated at $6000 without the labor. Sounds terrible maybe ,but thats my guess. After just going throug a WD45 refurb clean and paint, I think that may be close or maybe low? Yea you get going and things just keep cropping up. New tires and rims are not cheap. Old tires look like crap on a new painted tractor! Just sayin.  The owner won't want half a job on a restored tractor. He would want if factory fresh. If he has the money and you have the time?I would guess he would have $10,000 in it. But its his Dads. It would be like new for many years. A new Kubota would be the same cost but zero memories! Do you want a project? Even with a open check book available it still takes a lot of work to take them apart, fix the issues and get them back functioning. Then the paint and the detailing! I will be interested in the outcome! Good luck and have fun, and maybe go see his Dad. The good news is you have done this work before. so you may know the moves it takes. Maybe let the son in law know it will be a secondary project in your shop. May take 2 years to get it done. Don't forget tow years will go by even if your not doing this. Is the son-in law trying to get this done for Dad to see?? More questions than answers for you. The comments are great! I just got one (WD) that will stay in its work clothes but will be functional. Some should get cleaned up others should stay as is. Are you prepared to do the full resto? I think that what he is going to want. He likes your tractors!:) Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: modirt
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:23am
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This from the perspective of someone who a year or so ago, was faced with the same thing: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/d15-revival_topic152203_page1.html?KW=d15" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/d15-revival_topic152203_page1.html?KW=d15 Except in my case, I was presented with the tractor free......but I was the one who had to fix it. What seemed like a good deal wasn't. I quickly found out there were several good reasons why the tractor had been parked in a barn for nearly 20 years. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have to think twice. Financially, I have more in it than I could sell it for......(about $5,000 total for parts and hired labor), and that was not a cosmetic restore, that was just to get it mechanically in shape to reliably operate. And that was even with an OK engine, transmission, tires and sheet metal. But I also have a super cool little tractor that gets used around here all the time. The utility is such that if someone offered me $5,000 for it, I probably would not sell it for that. I'd suggest you invest the time it takes to get her engine running to find out the condition of the engine and transmission, and if that is a factory 3 point, go over it very carefully, including the critical casting that it takes to hold the hitch to the frame. Once you know what you are up against sufficient to make an educated guess on what it will take to restore it to good running condition, and then let the owners make the call. |
Posted By: 200 10and20
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:26am
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darrel in ND wrote:Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:27am
| Rolling restoration. Fix what needs fixed first. If he wants you to do the work make it worth your time. It seems you already know how long a task takes, just put a number to it. |
Posted By: ACinSC
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:47am
| My vote is a full restoration . Make it run and drive like new . You did say the SIL has deep pockets . Sure hope you post lots of pics as we have 2 D 15 series 1 . Thanks |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 8:27am
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ac, Ok I was supposed to vote! I vote full restoration because I like them looking like new and fully functional. (But you have to do the work not me!:)) Should be a nice well documented thread! (I thought little marv was going to do a full resto on his BIL's D series, he did a great job on the mechanical issues!) Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:08am
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I'd use it for awhile to find out what the issues are with the tractor,be a big waste of money to put on an expensive paint job to find out later you need to tear it apart. |
Posted By: modirt
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:17am
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BTW, does anyone have a good idea of the resale value of a fully restored (mechanical and cosmetic) D15 Series II? Have seen a lot of running and usable D15's selling in the range of $2,000 to $4,000.....but none of them fully restored. And by fully restored, I don't mean show quality.......just solid mechanical and a good paint job, tires etc.
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Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:46am
It is not a flat bar across the front axle. It is a piece of angle iron with a front hitch welded to it. Looks very well done. Did Allis offer something like that? We got the engine running a couple of weeks ago. Sounds very good and does not smoke. It also moves under its own power and the power steering works. Needs a water pump and carb rebuild right off the bat. Has 2 issues I have not encountered yet: The belt pulley does not move with the tractor off and the knob in the disengaged position. Secondly: The PTO is on all the time but the handle does not do anything. it moves freely between the 10:00 and 12:00 positions with no detents. Sounds like a split is in order regardless.
------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:55am
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if the PTO is same as D-14, there's a 'roll pin' or 2(?) that's finlly busted. It connects the PTO lever to the shaft. There was a post 1-2 months ago where someone had use a nut and bolt to 'repair'. Supposedly you can do it without splitting..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 12:10pm
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Sounds like its begun! I'm going for popcorn! Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: C in Concord
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 1:38pm
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Option 3 (cosmetic resto). Now that the homework is done... I'd try to gauge the son-in-law a little more before spending much more time on this. The sentimental value as an in-law and knowledge of the resto process may not be there, even if the $ is. Understanding his expectations should tell you how far apart you are. ------------- Leave things better than you found them. 1941 Model C (restored 2020) |
Posted By: jeickman01
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 5:13pm
| Not that it matters to the discussion about whether or not to restore, but I wonder about the strength of that front hitch. To pull out a stuck tractor and its implement, all of the strain is going through the front axle mounts. Seems like you could possibly pull it out from under the bolster. (and in the back of my mind is hearing about a neighboring farmer when I was growing up that pulled the front off a D17 when plowing virgin sod with another D17 in front). The d17 retirement project I acquired had a hitch welded to the grill guard bolted through the side frames to the bolster. Strain bypassed the front axle. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 5:25pm
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I would use the front hitch for pushing wagons into the barn. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: festus51
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 6:50pm
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I like shiny paint on tractors. I would vote for total restore. ------------- We the unwilling Led by the unqualified Doing the impossible for the Ungrateful |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:43pm
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Without a doubt keep her original can always restore later only original once. ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 7:46pm
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Heres what you do! 1. WAX all the orange paint 2. Repaint the wheels and Rims 3. Maybe redecal the hood...maybe That's it! ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 8:08pm
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I vote for a complete restoration. By fixing the rims, decals and gauges, you are going to have a mix of old and new. I say make it look like it came off the showroom floor. I'm betting the family has a lot of memories from when it was new and would like it better than it looks now.
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Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:46pm
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I think I'd vote full restore also. All or nothing. You could get by with some used wheels that match the paint very well, but that is all I would do if it runs good and the tranny is tight. No gauges or anything else. Otherwise, do it all. If you sit with the SIL and explain all of the things talked about here and see what he says. Especially the fact that it's a ONE OWNER. That front piece is not factory. Had Allis done something like that, they would have all the holes that are supposed to be there. Also, I agree with Sugarmaker about pushing wagons into the barn. Pushing them is a LOT easier than backing. I would never pull something that is stuck OR heavy. But, that's me. ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 10:48pm
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Leave it original. That's how he remember it. Fix the mechanical and power wash it. I have 8 lose eccentrics if you are interested.
------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 9:03pm
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The verdict is in. The son inlaw (key decision maker) wants it to look factory fresh. The more time I spent looking at it, the more I think it is right. I appreciate a good original as much as the next person, but the fixing/replacement of several visible pieces would detract from the originality. We will check everything out mechanically and fix anything that is suspect, then tear down for some fresh orange, and cream, and aluminum, and black... Fortunately, time is not an issue for him, but I would like to get it done in a year. We will have to wait and see. Sorry Calvin, your D15 diesel just got bumped! ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: Ron(WA)
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 10:06am
| I would say once you fix the problems, then do a restoration as good as you can, so you can be satisfied that you have completed a job well done, and have a tractor to be more than proud of. That is a two phase job, and will take a long time. You are doing this for someone else, so I don't know how to advise you about costs, just that it is never very profitable. Perhaps you could get the owner to help, so that he gets some of his time and interest invested in it too. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 11:00am
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I agree, restore. There is a video on Chat's tractors about a D15 restore. The big surprise on that build was that the differential ring gear and pinion were shot. Check that drawbar casting for cracks. I also remember a thread about $150 dollar exhaust valve rotators, and a an un-obtainium 3pt control valve. Your customer has the bucks to launch a restore, so a very good start. As for the economic value. Well, history is history. Yes you can get a 2wd JD 5045 for $16800 (India import) or a Kubota 5060 for $21K, both of which are more that 1000 pounds heavier than the D15, diesel, and 28" wheels. And I don't think the 3pt arms could be broken on the 5045. But the D15 is prettier, so there you go.
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Posted By: ryanschott
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 12:16pm
| I second don just wax get to run good and leave it. Maybe the decals. Put new decals on magnet then could pull off if want to see old ones |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 3:04pm
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We would like some pictures if you have time too. Might get others, not naming anyone, to get off their can and do a refurb, clean, and paint on a early D series too!:) Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |