Question for Dr. Allis
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Pulling Forum
Forum Description: Forum dedicated to Tractor and Garden Pulling
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=164191
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 7:59pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Question for Dr. Allis
Posted By: bigart
Subject: Question for Dr. Allis
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2019 at 11:51am
| Was the 441 ci 301 engine you recently discussed, a wet or a dry block motor? Thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2019 at 6:59pm
| Wet. It was a non-turbo gasser and as far as I know still running after 15 years. |
Posted By: bigart
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 3:16pm
| With 560/666 IH's all over running 466 N.A. and turbo engines, good to know you can run a 100 more cubes in a 301 ac in a 185/200 tractor. Thanks much for the information. A llss that runs Battle of the Bluegrass has a d19 rear, built 426 engine, heavily decompressed, but is a strong, consistent runner. |
Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 6:01pm
| I think the 441 as a diesel or alky with a turbo would be short lived |
Posted By: bigart
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 6:57pm
| I would believe the 4.25 crank should be left alone---unless the budget can stand a billet crank! Even a 370 to 405 probably could benefit from a girdle, and maybe a deck plate in a competitive llss build!! Don't know about the legality of the practice, but years back some of the llss tractors did a deck plate for their combustion chamber---. A tractor with a 1 to 2 hp per cubic inch, at 3000 rpm or less---may be the most enjoyable/ low maintenance of toy tractors. In the 80s a 4 charger 7030 puller and a binder prostock owner both told me they replaced rod/main bearings every 2 to 4 hooks---said making power was wearing them out!! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2019 at 7:07am
| The first 405 I built the crank was left stock. The 441 had an offset grind to stroke it 3/8" and I wouldn't even consider it in a turbo diesel. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 9:18pm
Why do people perpetually misuse the term 'billet'? You meant a 'forged' crank. A 'billet' crank would become a crankcase pretzel before a cylinder EVER fired. Billet is the second stage of steel production, like Ingot, Bloom, and Slab. Billet is a very simple, extremely soft steel, with very little alloy or carbon added, sent through a furnace, and hot-rolled into shapes, typically either soft rounds, or rebar, sometimes roll-threaded. Without the forming process, it's so malleable that it's useless for ANY purpose, other than a rapidly-rusting paperweight. Smack it with a light hammer, and it shows a very noticeable dent. It cannot be machined with any accuracy, it'd be like putting a bowl of peanut-butter in a Bridgeport. A FORGING, on the other hand, is made by placing chemically-enhanced steel alloy material in a massive forge and either pressed or hammered into a die. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
bigart wrote:Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 10:11am
|
True billet cranks are made of a hardened billet ,round blank that is made into a crankshaft buy machining had lots made for racing motors , and yes there expensive and they are significantly stronger than forged ------------- You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 1:28pm
I don't know, Dave. I've watched several videos of billet cranks being machined. I doubt they are spending thousands of dollars on them only to discover they are too soft to use. Maybe after they are machined they are hardened somehow. Here is a video of a billet crank being made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2swZ88U1No" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2swZ88U1No AaronSEIA
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 3:14pm
|
I agree, they're putting substantial resources into making a machined crank from rolled alloy, but the fact that it's rolled alloy, means it's not 'billet'. If it's rolled 4340 Cromoly, it's not 'billet'... it's an alloyed, rolled steel bar. Billet is what you get when you melt brake drums and virgin iron, and instead of pouring it into an ingot, or a bloom, or a slab, you pour it into a trough that's about 4" square and 12ft long. Once this has been done, it's sent on to be hot-rolled into soft products, like rebar, or if it's a sheet or foil mill, roof flashing, electrical conduit, and other non-structural applications. Calling finished parts 'billet' is the same as extracting water from whole milk, chilling the gooey stuff that remains, and calling it 'ice cream'. Modern CNC has made it much less expensive to make low production and one-off specialty parts, and the proliferation of consistent, high quality carbide, with flood coolant, in-place measurement, and other really great advances make it so that subtractive machining processes (both cutting, and abrasive) can work well on materials that wouldn't be economically workable just a decade-and-a-half ago. It used to be, that the best process available, was to use high-force press forging on carefully-brewed alloys at precise temperatures... and when doing large volume, it's still impossible to beat the cost of good foundry work... but a forging of ANY type is extremely expensive for the first one... the only cost break comes when you run thousands and tens-of-thousands.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 7:15am
Same reason people misuse the word Kleenex. It's the lingo. And now that they've seen it on TV or youtube or the neighbor says it, it's now what it is!
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Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 8:38am
| I stayed at a holiday inn express last night |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 10:34am
| maybe some one will put out a special ops. tactical crank, that would for sure make crazy insane horse power |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 5:36pm
| I'm with you Dave, the term Billett drives me nuts also. 45 years of forging, heat treating, and machining experience tells me better, I just watch it all for the entertainment. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 10:01am
Actually, we should make "Special Ops Tactical Crank" stickers... sell 'em for three bucks, it'll guarantee an extra 700 ft-lbs just having it on the fender, right? ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |