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Local Help! `47 WD

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=161890
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 10:04am
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Topic: Local Help! `47 WD
Posted By: bhaynes
Subject: Local Help! `47 WD
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2019 at 7:49pm
I am looking for anybody close to Chattanooga, TN with experience in the WD model? PLEASE message me! 

I am restoring my Great Great Grandfathers WD. It has been fully restored, but I can't get it started for the life of me. It has spark. Gas. Gas too Carb.. It IS in timing. The mag spark cables are in proper order, etc... I have tried it with the kill switch on, off and the wire not even plugged up to the magneto. I am absolutely clueless at this point. It sure looks pretty but would LOVE to have it running again.

Any help would be great! Obviously if somebody with knowledge living close, would be awesome to swing over one day and take a look! :)



Replies:
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2019 at 8:18pm
Haynes!
 I can almost feel your pain! Good luck and I hope a fellow Allis guy can help you trouble shoot the starting issues! Family tractors are the best! If I was close I would stop in even though I am not a mag guy!
Regards,
 Chris


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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2019 at 9:41pm
Have you tried removing the hose to the air filter and giving it a shot of starting fluid? If the gas is old or if it's had gas with ethanol in it, your carburetor could be dirty and some of the narrow passages could be plugged.


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 7:39am
The Carb. was completely redone during the restoration. I bought a complete Zenith repair kit and took the whole thing apart. Cleaned every last piece of surface on that thing and replaced most of the parts with new. It looks like a brand new carb. 

HOWEVER - I do think that is the culprit maybe. I don't think gas is getting sucked into the manifold and into the block. I know for a fact gas is getting TO the carb. But when I took the spark plug out and did the `ole sniff test, I don't smell gas. Which I would think I should if gas is being sprayed in there right? 

I also squirted about a tablespoon of gas into the pistons to see if I could "kick start" the process, but nothing. 


Posted By: Ranse
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 7:55am
I'm only 80 miles from Chattanooga and I wouldn't care to help you out, but I'm not your guy. Since all your components are new or repaired, I'd say it probably is in your timing. I've read several times on this forum how to time an engine. I have a vague understanding of it. I'd say until you actually time one and it runs you're going to remain uncertain. I know this don't help, but good luck with your WD.


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:03am
Thanks Ranse! 

I am not sure if timing or the Carb. Something tells me the Carb isn't getting gas in it, but I know gas is flowing. (if that makes sense). 

For the timing, I know it is 1, 2, 4, 3. I hand cranked it until I saw Piston 1 at the top notch. Then made sure from there that the Mag. is hitting position 1 on the cap. Not sure if that is correct, but that is how I tried to time it correctly. 


Posted By: TimCNY
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:04am
Timing would not be a factor in the fuel not being sucked into (not sprayed lol) the cylinder(s).


Posted By: TimCNY
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:06am
Ignition timing, that is.


Posted By: jiminnd
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:17am
Did you have piston on top of compression stroke, maybe you are off one turn.

-------------
1945 C, 1949 WF and WD, 1981 185, 1982 8030, unknown D14(nonrunner)


Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:17am
Originally posted by bhaynes bhaynes wrote:



For the timing, I know it is 1, 2, 4, 3. I hand cranked it until I saw Piston 1 at the top notch.  


The no. 1 piston must be on compression stroke when putting it on top dead center for timing the motor, put your thumb in the spark plug hole to feel for compression while cranking the motor.


Posted By: cabinhollow
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:34am
I'll go with ,timing is one stroke off.
Updraft carb and on the intake stroke, the intake valves are closed.


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:43am
Thanks everybody! I will look at the timing again. 

On the Carb issue though. Shouldn't I smell gas in the Carb? 


Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 8:58am
From the Manual:






Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:01am
It's very easy to remove the air cleaner hose and spray some starting fluid in. If it starts and quits, you will know it's not on the ignition side. 
If it doesn't start, you will know it's on the ignition side.


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:05am
If it starts and stops - then NOT timing basically? 

If it doesn't start - then timing? 

?? :) 


Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:05am
Originally posted by bhaynes bhaynes wrote:

The Carb. was completely redone during the restoration. I bought a complete Zenith repair kit and took the whole thing apart. Cleaned every last piece of surface on that thing and replaced most of the parts with new. It looks like a brand new carb.

The surfaces aren't the problem. The problem is when one of the very narrow passages is plugged up. 

A teaspoon of gas probably isn't enough to get it to start. I would start with a teaspoon down each spark plug, if you don't want to use starting fluid.


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:15am
Originally posted by bhaynes bhaynes wrote:

It has been fully restored, but I can't get it started for the life of me. It has spark. Gas. Gas too Carb.. It IS in timing. The mag spark cables are in proper order, etc... I have tried it with the kill switch on, off and the wire not even plugged up to the magneto. I am absolutely clueless at this point. It sure looks pretty but would LOVE to have it running again.


Fully restored? Is the cam timed with the crankshaft properly?  You can have fuel to the carb, spark at the plugs and it won't run if the valves are opening at the wrong time. You also most likely won't have any gas being sucked into the cylinders.
 You could also have spark on the exhaust stoke, if you didn't have it on TDC of THE COMPRESSION stroke when you "timed" it.


-------------
http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:16am
Originally posted by bhaynes bhaynes wrote:

If it starts and stops - then NOT timing basically? 

If it doesn't start - then timing? 

?? :) 

Correct. If it's 180 degrees off, it might backfire, but it won't start. If it starts and runs anywhere near normally, the timing is right (or slightly off), but it isn't getting gas.




Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:16am
No such thing as a 1947 WD.


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:16am
Originally posted by bhaynes bhaynes wrote:

It has been fully restored, but I can't get it started for the life of me. It has spark. Gas. Gas too Carb.. It IS in timing. The mag spark cables are in proper order, etc... I have tried it with the kill switch on, off and the wire not even plugged up to the magneto. I am absolutely clueless at this point. It sure looks pretty but would LOVE to have it running again.


Fully restored? Is the cam timed with the crankshaft properly?  You can have fuel to the carb, spark at the plugs and it won't run if the valves are opening at the wrong time. You also most likely won't have any gas being sucked into the cylinders.
 You could also have spark on the exhaust stoke, if you didn't have it on TDC of THE COMPRESSION stroke when you "timed" it.


-------------
http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:19am
Has it ever run since you have had it? What has changed since the last time it ran? Did you do anything that would change the timing? Are the gears in the magneto aligned correctly?


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:36am
The very first thing I'd do... is open up the carb drain and let it run for about a minute, then close it, then close off the fuel tank petcock and dump and replace the sediment bowl, then  open the petcock again, then open the carb drain for 15 seconds, then close, and tap on the carb bowl.  (*flushing it clear of any water, and proving fuel flow, making sure carb float isn't stuck).

Next, pull all four spark plugs, clean each one, connect plug wire, turn the engine over by hand and observe spark at each plug... make sure that it matches with air pressure rise in cylinder (place a finger over the plug hole while turning crank).

When turned slowly, the magneto impulser should emit a loud "CLACK!" when crossing TDC.  The spark should be an angry, nasty white SNAP...  Anything less means magneto needs a little TLC... at minimum, clean and set points... or at most, a complete rebuild with proven condenser and points, on a proper magneto test machine.

You should have ample compression resistance on every cylinder when turning hand crank.  If it hasn't run in a while, the valves may be lazy and not sealing well, which would inhibit proper ignition.

Make certain that there's no mouse nests in the intake or exhaust...  dump the oil from the oil-bath air cleaner, disconnect the air cleaner, and clean it out thoroughly.  Pull off the muffler, put a vacuum cleaner on it, and the exhaust manifold, or if it's got a wasp nest in it, remove the manifold and clean all the mud out by hand. (BTDT...)


-------------
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:39am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

No such thing as a 1947 WD.


Hee hee... if it was his great-great grandfathers, it's probably a '37 unstyled...


-------------
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 11:10am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

No such thing as a 1947 WD.

Yeah, I think most of us let that "slide"......WC or WD...makes little difference
when diagnosing his problem.

I posted the Magneto timing procedure because I don't think, from his description of how he "timed" it, he has a full comprehension of the difference between a magneto and distributor.


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

No such thing as a 1947 WD.

Apologies. Fat fingered it. It is 1948. :)


Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

The very first thing I'd do... is open up the carb drain and let it run for about a minute, then close it, then close off the fuel tank petcock and dump and replace the sediment bowl, then  open the petcock again, then open the carb drain for 15 seconds, then close, and tap on the carb bowl.  (*flushing it clear of any water, and proving fuel flow, making sure carb float isn't stuck).

Next, pull all four spark plugs, clean each one, connect plug wire, turn the engine over by hand and observe spark at each plug... make sure that it matches with air pressure rise in cylinder (place a finger over the plug hole while turning crank).

When turned slowly, the magneto impulser should emit a loud "CLACK!" when crossing TDC.  The spark should be an angry, nasty white SNAP...  Anything less means magneto needs a little TLC... at minimum, clean and set points... or at most, a complete rebuild with proven condenser and points, on a proper magneto test machine.

You should have ample compression resistance on every cylinder when turning hand crank.  If it hasn't run in a while, the valves may be lazy and not sealing well, which would inhibit proper ignition.

Make certain that there's no mouse nests in the intake or exhaust...  dump the oil from the oil-bath air cleaner, disconnect the air cleaner, and clean it out thoroughly.  Pull off the muffler, put a vacuum cleaner on it, and the exhaust manifold, or if it's got a wasp nest in it, remove the manifold and clean all the mud out by hand. (BTDT...)

It was a rust bucket and leaking out of every nook and crack when I got it from my grandfather. It was running about 2 years ago (maybe a little less) and then turned off and hasn't been fired up since. I took it and completely redid everything. New seals everywhere. Everything back the way it was. New Manifold, newly rebuilt carburetor, new headlights, new steering wheel, sand blasted down to the cast iron, then new primer and AC orange all the way around. 

The Magneto wasn't generating spark and Steve in NJ (here on the Forum) rebuilt it for me and sent it back. The generator has been cleaned, repainted and tested. New battery and new wiring harness. Also new spark plugs, gas lines, oil lines, hydraulic hoses, new hoses everywhere else. New Radiator and bolts everywhere. Oh, new Oil Bath Air Cleaner (refurbished, cleaned and painted) :) The `48 WD looks like it could be show room ready! 



Posted By: bhaynes
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 1:58pm
This is the tractor before the final finish. (Looks pretty with the orange UT flag!) hehe
 




Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 2:16pm
It would be much better if it was an orange SYRACUSE flag....  

But it does look very nice!!!


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 5:43pm
"The mag spark cables are in proper order, etc.."
 Proper order is determined by where the mag was in its cycle when it was mounted on the tractor. You have to determine when it is going to spark on one wire, and put the mag on with the engine at TDC of the compression stroke to know which wire goes where.


-------------
http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 9:07pm
Hanyes,
 The family WD looks real good and is just waiting for you to get it started! You have done a lot of work on it! On the carb issue you need to open the bottom drain on the carb and allow gas to flow. (try not to hurt that new paint) Another option is to use a spray bottle with gas and spray it into the carb with the air cleaner hose off. If it trys to start and guits then fuel system is the problem. 
I cant help you on the mag timing. Sorry
I have changed all mine to distributors. They are easier for me to trouble shoot. 
If I were you I would try to call Don(MO) for mag timing instructions.
Regards,
 Chris


-------------
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: Ranse
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 11:00pm
bhaynes,
That flag suits me just fine. When I joined this forum, I considered making my user name "Two Shades of Orange". AC orange and UT orange, because I bleed both colors. I felt " Two Shade of Orange" was a bit long, so I didn't do it. Pointless info I know, anyway GO BIG ORANGE! and good luck on your tractor.

BTW, today was Pat Summit's birthday. May she R.I.P.


Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Brian G.  NY Brian G. NY wrote:

From the Manual:

Have you followed the steps outlined in the manual?






Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 8:39am
Shoot some gas down into each cylinder and try to start it. If it runs for a couple of seconds then you know the timing is correct, compression is good and ignition is good and that would leave fuel as the problem.

-------------
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson



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