Leaking final drive on HD16DC
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=157430
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 1:46pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Leaking final drive on HD16DC
Posted By: jerbob
Subject: Leaking final drive on HD16DC
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 12:51pm
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Howdy This one stumps me. This past summer I noticed a small on the right side final drive. I think it was Cal that said check outer cover as sometimes a leaking seal will occur under the bearing cover and follow face of final drive and appear to be leaking somewhere else. Cal was right. I torqued to specks, emptied final drive and refilled with 80/90 gear oil per speck. No leaked anywhere until today. I saw oil under final drive same as before and checked level and was down substantially. What would cause a leak to start up just sitting still for at least 2 months. It did drop down to 0 overnight. Metal contraction? ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Replies:
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 3:50pm
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Help from Michigan. I may have found my final drive leak issue. Still not sure why is started to leak just sitting but I started scraping and wire brushing where it showed a past leak behind the sprocket. It’s not leaking from the Outboard Cover as it did previously and cleaned up all around the Final Drive Intermediate Pinion outer cover. Found that there are 3 threaded holes without any bolts in them. Not sure if that would cause a leak and I also read that there are tapered threaded holes to use a tool to help pull cover off. I will send pics tomorrow. Question: could this cause a leak as it is moist around the cover (they call it a cage in the shop manual) and can you remove this cover without pulling drive sprocket as it appears to have enough room to do so. Thank you. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 8:33am
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The three threaded holes are Pusher Bolt holes to remove that assembly. Allis used a Particular Bladder type final seal, a Neoprene donut fiber reinforced with a internal and external steel squeeze plate spring loaded to keep the system under pressure to keep oil in dirt out. Check the parts lists at Minnpar if they do not have then do a Google search by Allis Chalmers and p/n. There may be a few still out there, I got the last known to exist for my 7G a few years back and nothing shows on searches anymore. Have to remove the lower truck frame, roll it out of the way, pull sprocket then bearing support is accessible where that seal sits. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 3:18pm
Crap! Thank you for the information ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
DMiller wrote:Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 3:21pm
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Just remember - if it isn't a bad leak the real problem is when it stops leaking |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 6:00am
Meaning that when it stops leaking the final drive is out of oil correct Ian? ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 8:35pm
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Yep! There is an alternate theory that if oil can leak out then dust can leak in. But it ought'nt happen while the oil is leaking out.
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Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 6:14am
Thank you. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 11:49am
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Thank you Ian. I won’t be able to power wash with steam until spring so tractor is sitting in barn. Hard to do much in an unheated barn with his time of year. I should the final drive does not leak entirely. Just goes down to roughly under the level of your finger. When you pull the cover plug off with a drive wrench, you can see down to where the lower level is. I filled it to the top of the plug and it’s down to the lower cavity. When I drained it this last time it looked like 2 or 3 gallons was still in the unit. That’s what led me to believe it was a cap or cover higher up. Thank you again. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 11:59am
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Vents should be at the Top of the finals housing. Pull the fill plug and blow down thru the vent cap threaded hole to see if air emits below. Page 172 of Parts manual (Minnpar) |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 4:04pm
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Now that's a pretty good idea. Yes I have factory crankcase vents own top of each housing and would be easy to put under some pressure to see where it is leaking from. Thank you DMiller. Will let you Ian know how that works out when it gets above 10 degrees. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 5:05pm
| You should never fill the final drive to the top plug you can stop when you see oil in hole |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2019 at 5:17pm
I did not know that gemdozer. Would love to think I overfilled it. Thank you . I used de greaser cleaner and wiped down the side of final drive and around the sprocket and everything I could reach. Will put a small amount of air pressure on the unit to see if I can find any telltale signs of fluid leaking. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 9:42am
Here’s a curious thing for you to answer. In my original parts and shop manual, the bolts for the Outer Drive Cage( cap) show either 5/8 or 1/2 inch with different torque specs for each. My bolts are 3/4” on this cap as well as the Intermediate Pinion Cap. Does this mean anything such as wrong manual or a change to these final drives in my tractors past? They appear original. Was there a Heavy Duty upgrade as an original option? ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 9:46am
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1/2" bolts are 3/4" hex, is this what you are referring to? If has been upsized may have also drilled too deep or too wide and cracked where the oil can leach out thru a crack. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 2:46pm
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Thought of both DMiller. Going to do a pressure test this week on that side final drive and see where the leak is. Pretty confident it’s from behind sprocket but will know more when I put the air to it. Very little at that to not make matters worse. Thank you for responding ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 11:48am
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Hey guys On the final drive, how does the intermediate and pinion gear get oil? Is this a case that the main gear is lubed by the oil sump and carries it to the intermediate and pinion gears? Reason I ask is that the oil leak is not draining the entire final drive housing, just partially. I will add enough oil to bring up the previous level and will tell me how much I lost bs how much I added back. Total housing according to my manual holds 4.5 gallons. If I’m losing 1 or 2 gallons then there is still over 2 gallons in the lower housing. I think of it as an oil bath kind of a situation. If the main gear is immersed in oil does that get to the intermediate and pinion gears by a splash effect? Just assessing extent prior to making plans to split the track, move out the truck frame and pull sprocket. Thank you ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 1:16pm
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yes splash. IIRC there is a kind of channel built onto the inside of the case to help funnel oil to the inner bearing, but its been awhile. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 1:47pm
Thank you Cal. I will add fluid to see if I can identify the source of the leak for certain now that I have it all pretty cleaned up. Then determine how much was lost vs what the case holds. Might not be as bad as I feared. Will let you know. My thanks again. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 3:57pm
| Yes just by splash and if you used to much oil in final drive it will destroy the bellow seal |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2019 at 4:19pm
Thank you Gem. per the operating manual, I filled to top of fill opening. Sounds like in practice that is not a good thing. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: Steve allis dozer
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 6:16pm
| MY HD11 leaks sometimes and then takes up doesn't leak for a while I just check the oil and top it up before use , i have heard of fencing wire getting wrapped around there . they don't like that ! |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 5:57am
Thank you Steve. Good advice. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 7:59am
this happend to me on my 16. I started loosing oil so i kept a close eye on it till i was finished up and able to haul it home. turns out a piece of wire had been pulled into the gasket area of the seal and dislodged part of it. a whole lot of work for 1 little gasket, but got it fixed. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:31pm
Was this wire wrapped around the Sprocket Hub? Which gasket was impacted Cal ? ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:43pm
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mine happened on the gasket on the final drive housing inside of the sprocket. so the sprocket had to be removed to put in a gasket! where the stationary seal ring is against the housing. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 2:32pm
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Thank you. I bet was fun job!! ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 3:28pm
If I have to go that route it won’t be till warm and dry weather Cal. How bad s job is it? I am guessing that you have to 1.split the track. 2. Pull the truck frame out. 3. Then pull the sprocket. How tools did you have to fab to get that job done? :( ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 10:55am
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1. Yes 2. Yes (forward) 3. Yes ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 11:26am
| Guys, my old friend used to run strictly AC dozers. He said he bought STP in 5 gallon buckets. When he drained his final drives, he refilled them with STP. Many years ago I was in his shop and saw the empty buckets. I wish I had ask him for 1. Don't know if it is still around, but he claimed it really stopped his from leaking. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 11:51am
Thank you Cal. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:03pm
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Thank you HD. I have been using 80/90 weight gear oil and put in 5 Gallons after I drained out housing per my original manual. This took the fluid level up to almost the top of the fill plug. Level was down around an inch or two from the top of the fill opening. It leaked down to under the hole in the case. I added roughly 1/2” gallon out of a new jug of 80w145 gear oil and this took level up to over the opening in the bottom of the final drive housing and will monitor it for a few days. I have heard that Lucas oil treatment and or STP has been used successfully for minor seal leaks. Will try this course of action and let y’all know . I really appreciate the responses and suggestions. Cal, Ian and HD, thank you. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 4:18pm
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Different dozer, similar problem area I got a piece of high tensile fence wire caught in the sprocket seal of our FA 10. They use face seals. A neighbour suggested seeing if I could work the piece out. By taking a track plate off I could get a sheet metal finger hook into the area and managed to do that. Those face seals must be tough - I ended up with a very minor leak.
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Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 7:00am
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It’s funny Ian that sitting the final drive in question starts and stops on its own. I’m thinking the cold might play a factor. It’s been very cold here in single digits. When it gets above 30 I will look to see if the oil leak starts again due to viscosity. The more I dig into different aspects of my 16, I see past abuse that I had not noticed before. Mostly dents and metal parts with breaks and obvious rough use. Sprocket covers bent and a couple with cracks, fenders with dents and waves, 3 broken grousers. Seems like it was in the bolders or tree stumps in its past. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 4:53pm
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You might have one of those final drive leaks that stops when you work out just where the sprocket has to stop when you park it |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 5:54pm
I was wondering about that Ian. Wondered if there was a weak spot and not an entire seal failure. Good one Ian. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |