Gleaner M combine 301 engine
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Topic: Gleaner M combine 301 engine
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Subject: Gleaner M combine 301 engine
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 4:11pm
| Looking for help. Had to pull the fuel pump off my combine to have it rebuilt. Not knowing any better, i pulled it without putting the pump in time. Now i need to. Get it in time. Would i be right to put the pump in time with the lines lined up and the engine fly wheel at TDC? Any help greatly appreciated |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 4:22pm
| If it is truly a model "M", you have a pump driveshaft sticking out from the engine, right?? There are two styles of driveshafts. One is a flat tang drive (it has a "dot" on it) and the other is a spline drive (it has an internal notch tang). Either way, if the pump is rotated to the correct shaft orientation, bolt it back on the engine and place the mounting nuts/washers right back where they were and you are good to go. And no, placing the engine at TDC and lining up the pump marks won't work, as the engine might be on #1 or #6 and it isn't TDC, it is a number 16 to 24 degrees before TDC depending on the specific engine and injection pump. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:21am
|
Dr. Allis, It is a spline shaft with a small cut out that locks into a small slot inside the pump. The shaft does go through the engine wall like you described. The pump is a roosa master and the engine is a Mark I i believe. Its a Gleaner M 1978. I didnt remove the pump correctly and now I am having timing issues. I had the pump lines lined up and the engine at TDC and hot it started, but it smoked like crazy. Do you think its 16 or 24 BTDC? I see on the fly wheel there is numerous slash marks next to the TDC mark. Are those used to get it BTDC? I am very new at all this. But Im learning a lot as I go. Thanks. Greg |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:28am
| 1976 was the last year for a model "M" combine. If you got the injection pump back on the engine, you must have the shaft engaged correctly as per the "locating tang" on the end of the shaft. So, with that in mind, you should be able to rotate the pump back and forth on the mounting slots and get it timed where it needs to be. I'd have to look up the timing spec number, but I'm thinking 18 degrees BTDC but don't trust me on that. Like I said in my earlier post, if you put the pump exactly where it was on the slotted mounting holes it has to be right. Don't you have any paint marks? or flat washer marks to go by ??? |
Posted By: Carl(NWWI)
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:43am
| More then likely you will have to time the front damper pulley to the correct degrees mark against the pointer on thr front cover. Then remove the small window on the side of the pump, then loosen the 2 mounting screws for the pump and line up the internal marks on the pump by rotating it. If the one mark isn't visable. Turn engine 1 full revolution and line marks up. Do not turn the pump with the engine running. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:51am
| Then, there's the matter of the umbrella seals on the drive shaft...……...Better not have rolled the first one or you will eventually have diesel fuel in the engine oil. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 10:01am
|
Mr. Allis, So lineup like 20 degrees before top dead center you think? Im getting really good at the umbrella seals. Lol Thanks greg |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 10:51am
|
Mr. Allis, I would think after that i should be able to tweek by rotating the pump? Greg |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 11:06am
| Remove the small window on the side of the injection pump. Looking in the window you will see a horizontal mark in the rear half of the window. Rotate the engine by hand until you see a second horizontal mark appear in the front half of the window. Align them to each other. Now, what does the crankshaft pulley say ?????? I don't have my Service Book with me, but I think it should be 16 to 18 degrees BTDC with the two marks aligned to each other. I only know of one guy who ever got that splined driveshaft together incorrectly, and he used the pumps mounting nuts to draw the pump onto the drive shaft. It broke off the alignment tang inside the shaft. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 3:22pm
|
Dr Allis, You have no idea how much help you have been! I put the pump drive shaft in while it was on the work bench, that way the umbrella seals were perfect. I had already removed the gear of the shaft. Then i put the pump back on and stuck the shaft threw the engine wall. From there i put the gear back on and torqued the nut on the gear to 40 lbs per pump company. Worked out very well. Tomorrow i will get the valve cover back on and sealed, and fire it up. Thank you so much sir! Greg |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 3:28pm
|
pump numbers would help so I can tell you what timing spec is. I'd have thought the shop who rebuilt it for you would have offered up some technical support! 10JT is 24*, 24JT is 18*. Many of these were updated to 8* advance from 5* so they could be put on at 18* for better starting. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 1:41pm
|
Dr Allis, The pump number is DCGFC 627-10JT 2400. We put the engine at 20 degrees BTDC, but i still have the adjustment in the pump slotted holes. I plan on finishing tonight and firing it up. Thanks Greg |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 1:56pm
| I never looked in my books, but a 10JT is 24 degrees according to Ed's information. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 6:25pm
|
Dr. Allis, Well my good buddy and I fired it up at 20 degrees BTDC and it was not running right. Lots of smoke, no idel, and would not staying running. We shut it off and tipped the pump both ways and it didnt seem to help. Acts like maybe too much fuel? Even had a little fire out the exhaust when i tried to rev it. You think 24 BTDC though? I hate to keep bothering you, but you are a rare find. This information is hard to come by. Thanks, Greg |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 6:26pm
| After the pros rebuilt the pump, would it still be under the same stats. They did retag it. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:25pm
|
The rebuilder that rebuilt YOUR PUMP should be able to help you best because they should know exactly what you have. Unless you don't trust them. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 5:47am
| They told me they do not have that information pertaining to the engine timing. I was a little suprised. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 7:45am
that is sad. The Allis timing specs I have here and use almost daily, is a service bulletin circulated throughout the fuel injection industry. They simply didn't want to take the time to find that info. In my opinion, that is still part of our job as pump rebuild shops. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Gregc72deer wrote:Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 9:56am
| It is sad. The exact BTDC is so hard to find. Im thinking they have it at their finger tips. Because its smoking so much, im guessing it to far and i need to come back to like 14 or 12 btdc instead of 20. |
Posted By: steve fischer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 6:28pm
| my list says 24 with a 6 degree advance ,is your balancer slipped on rubber ,most are marked inner and outer with a line on front face |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 7:02am
| 24 degree before top dead center then plus 6? So 30 Degrees BTDC? The only timing marks i found are on the fly wheel. It has a mark for TDC. Thats a v mark and lines after seem to be in 1 degree incerments. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 7:03am
| Im not sure what the balancer is? |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 7:15am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 7:54am
No, he meant 24* timing to the engine when the pump has a 6* advance in it. What that means is it starts out at 24*, and once up to full speed the pump advance of 6* (is actually doubled for crankshaft degrees, engine sees 12*) so the engine ends up at 36* (24+12)total at full speed. Remember, the pump runs half engine speed. Confused yet? lol! Simply put, time it to 24*. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 8:27am
| 24 degrees BTDC on the crank pullly. That i can do. The pump 1/2 speed i did not know. Im very new to this. Lol. So as long as i lineup the crank pulley at 24 degrees, put the pump on with pump lines in line, that should be right? |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 8:29am
| I think i under stand about the hub and rubber sleeve. I will check that to make sure ints still lined up. Thank you |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 8:49am
| Almost. Line up the crank pulley to the pointer on the timing cover at 24 degrees BEFORE-TDC, not after TDC. You also must be on #1 cylinder compression stroke, not #6. This means both rocker arms on #1 cylinder will be loose. If the pump is still on the engine, getting the pump window marks CLOSE to each other should mean you are on #1 compression stroke. Then, make the crank pulley read 24 degrees BEFORE TDC, and this should be done while rotating the engine in its normal direction. This means have the engine on 30 degrees BTDC and move it to 24 degrees BTDC to take all the slack out of the timing gears. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:14am
 I included a pic of the pointer im using to line up with. Its a raised steel mark and the slashes are on the pulley. There is the TDC v mark on the pully, the small lines going only in one dirrection arount the pully. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:16am
| I did also pull the valve cover and made sure both the exhaust and fuel intake were both closed on the 1 # cylinder. That lined up with TDC on the pully. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:18am
| TDC is pictured all the way to the right in the photograph. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:24am
|
yep, looks like someone even punch marked 24. You're sitting about 4* BTDC in pic. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:26am
| 1# cylinder is closrs to the crank pully? Right? |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:39am
|
right ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 10:24am
| Is it right below the finger nail the punch u see at 24btdc? |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 12:48pm
|
yep, where the paint chips are. The long line is 25, each mark is 1*. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2018 at 5:10am
|
Sounds good. Ill update you guys this weekend. Thanks again for all the help. Greg |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 3:26pm
|
Well, no luck. Wont run, and wont fire. Only fires on the starter fluid. Bled the lines and the injectors and everything. Talked to a friend of mine who works on diesels and he asked me if there is a key/pin hole for setting the timing on the flywheel. I saw nothing. Im puzzled, i put it right on those punch marks. Greg |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 3:46pm
| If you are 180 degrees off (number 6 instead of number 1) that is what it will do. It will fire on ether and fill the shed with heavy diesel exhaust smoke and then die. If the injection pump isn't pumping fuel and fires on ether, there will be little smoke out the exhaust. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 4:20pm
| We timed the cylinder closes to the radiator/timing pulley. We took that cylinder to TDC, then moved it to the punch marks, then installed the pump with lines lined up. Just fires on the ether, never stays running. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 4:37pm
| You may have been on TDC for #6 cylinder if the rocker arms on #1 weren't loose !! You don't say if you have heavy smoke when it does fire on ether (or not). Loosen the injector line nut on #6 and try and start it again to be sure you have all air bled out. Leave the other 5 injector line nuts tight. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 4:48pm
|
sounds like it's timed to #6 just like Dr says. I was under the impression in original post that it ran, just smoked a little. If you've never had it fire since putting pump on, you are indeed 180* out of time. Line the pump marks up again, carefully slide the pump gear out enough to miss the other gears, turn engine 1 turn normal direction to the 24* mark again, and carefully slide shaft back into pump making sure it clicks into the splines and the notch correctly. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 10:12pm
So just how did you determine that you were on #1 and not #6? As explained,you can only tell with the rocker cover off. When on #1, you have 2 loose rockers on #1 and 1 loose and 1 tight on # 6.
|
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 5:37am
| We timed the cylinder closes to the radiator/timing pulley. We took that cylinder to TDC, then moved it to the punch marks, then installed the pump with lines lined up. Just fires on the ether, never stays running. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 5:40am
| I did take the rocker cover off and watched the springs on #1. As long as #1 is closes to the radiator on the pump side of the engine, but that what the consences was. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 7:28am
|
In my opinion, the best way to determine you're on #1 cylinder is to pull that injector and put a plug or a finger in the injector hole. While turning engine clockwise looking from front, normal direction, when on compression stroke #1 you will have air blow out the plug or finger. That is the true indication it's coming up on the compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke which is the case when you are 180* out of time. On a 4 cycle engine(which this is) the TDC mark will come up every turn, but since the camshaft turns half the speed of crankshaft, it determines which stroke each cylinder is on. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 8:27am
|
Ok. I will do that. Pull the injector and place my finger over the hole. When its coming up, the air will push my finger out your saying right? Once that happens Im at TDC right? Then how do I rotate the engine to get to 24 BTDC from there. Same direction the engine normally travels? Thank you, Greg
|
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 8:28am
| And this is on the #1 cyclinder, closes to the radiator correct? |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 8:36am
|
when air pushes finger out, that cylinder is coming up on compression, so stop at the 24* mark BEFORE top dead center (BTDC) which is where the pump needs timed. Air will hiss out that hole a long ways before the marks start coming in to view. #1 cylinder is the front of the engine as if it was in a tractor, water pump end, timing gear end etc, that is the front, #1. Turn engine by hand with a wrench or socket and ratchet. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 11:47am
|
Ed, Is removing the injector a hard job? I have never done that before. Greg
|
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2018 at 1:01pm
|
take off the return line, injection line, and then the 2 nuts or bolts holding the injector in. It may be tough to get out. Be careful prying. With the symptoms you have though, I'd forget the injector, and just move the pump gear like I mentioned above. You've got a 50/50 shot at timing it. It only smokes where it is now, so it is a good bet it's 180* out of time. No point making it any more difficult than it already has turned out to be. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2018 at 3:25pm
|
Thats what I will do. I wont play with the injector and time it off the springs. No use making more work. Ill let you know how it goes. Thanks again. Greg |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 3:13pm
|
Well, i owe you guys! I was 180 off. I pulled the valve cover again, turned the engine over by hand and stopped 24 degrees BTDC. Put everything back together, cracked the lined to get the air out, and shot a small burst of ether in her. Fired up, smoked white smoke for 5 mins, 15 mins later could barely see the exhaust. Tons of response and power. Still has a little white smoke, but not bad. Would you suggest i rotate the pump or leave it? And if so, which was. Top of pump towards enging or away from engine? Again, thank you so much guys! Greg. Lawton, MI |
Posted By: Alvin M
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 3:36pm
| My sheet shows 18 degrees for dcgfc627-10jt |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 4:21pm
| My pump ends in 10jt. My paperwork shows 24 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 4:58pm
| My Service Manual shows this: Engines prior to s/n 2D-74971 have a DCGFC 627-10JT injection pump and are timed at 24 degrees BTDC. THIS ASSUMES THAT THE INJECTION PUMP HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED or UPDATED TO THE NEWER STYLE ADVANCE. If this happened, the pump should have been re-stamped or marked to be timed at 18 degrees BTDC instead. Engines after s/n 2D- 74971 have a DCGFC 627-24JT injection pump and are timed at 18 degrees BTDC. It always pays to line up the pump marks before pump removal to KNOW where it was and has been for many years. If you hadn't removed the driveshaft from the engine, you should have been able to slide the pump right back onto the shaft and would have got it right because of the alignment tang inside the splines. As far as rotating the pump any ?? If the marks are aligned at 24 degrees BTDC that should be correct and leave it alone !!! You will probably not be able to change it from 24 to 18 anyway without maybe having to move the drive gear one tooth. The general installation thing is this: from the Factory the pump was mounted somewhere near the center of the adjustment slots on the pump mounting flange. It is never full extreme one way or the other. |
Posted By: Gregc72deer
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 5:56pm
|
I for sure wish i would have lined the marks up before tear down. I will never do that again. Shes running really well. Lots of response and quick. No hesitation. Ill leave tje pump where its at. The holes are in the middle of the slots now. When my pump was rebuilt the tag said nothing about changing the timing. I think 24 is really close and my engine likes it. Thanks again Greg |