Starting a diesel engine, especially cold question
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=156226
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Topic: Starting a diesel engine, especially cold question
Posted By: gerkendave
Subject: Starting a diesel engine, especially cold question
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 6:44pm
| So after seeing a decal inside a swather with a cummins diesel in it I am wondering if I am placing my throttle in the wrong position when starting cold. I always just bump off an idle. This decal showed the universal sign for "choke" as running the throttle 3/4 of the way up. Now I understand that there is no choke on a diesel but does running the throttle up aid in the engine starting easier when cold? I've also noticed our Grasshopper dealer we use at work starts the little Kubota with the throttle wide open. I've always felt it's extremely hard on something to start like that but maybe I'm all wrong. What do you all do? |
Replies:
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 6:50pm
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Starting a Deere 4755, it automatically revs up high then throttles back on its own. I don't care for that method. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: skateboarder68
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 7:13pm
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Our 8050 had a factory decal by the console that said something like To aid in cold weather starting fully open throttle. Return to idle at first fire ------------- Orange & Silver still earnin their keep on the farm: R62, Series IV D17 nf, 185, 6080, 6080 fwa, 220, 1968 D21, 7045, DT240. |
Posted By: gerkendave
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 7:18pm
| Good info guys thank you! I've always been amazed that our 300kw genset at work goes from 0 to wide open immediately! There is never an idle option even under cool down straight from wide open to nothing. Seems extreme! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 8:35pm
| The cold starting technique varies with each brand of engine and what kind of fuel injection system it has on it. Some are better after throttling wide-open and others are better at a slow idle. Not the same for all is my point. |
Posted By: gerkendave
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 6:41am
| What is the best option on my 190xt doc? |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 7:11am
| To me the best option is based on what method the equipment responds to. Do you plug it in? Everything I own of multiple brands if plugged in doesn’t need help from the throttle. If I need something that’s not plugged in, I’ll open the throttle but bring it down rapidly rather then letting it rev up right away, I hate that! I have one unit with a cold start mechanism that pours fuel to it automatically, but it changes other things so that it doesn’t rev. It sputters and chokes with smoke pouring then after a little bit runs perfect. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:33am
| Some have a timing advance that is set at that lever position your decal had, we had a Ford 6610 that had a button on the pump that when pushed in it would fire off very easily in cold weather |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:28pm
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I wish I had put in a block heater on my XT when I was doing maintenance 2 years ago. Starting a warm engine to me is always easier on the components verses the intake heater. Usually takes anywhere between 30-60 seconds of the heater depending on the outside temperature. She starts pretty well after a few spins of the engine. Use half throttle on mine and pull back to a 1/4 after she is up and running. Would rather have a block heater instead. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:33pm
Best trick I ever learned was to slide a coleman tent heater, under the oil pan, and let simmer, fer about 45 minutes, then they ALL start much easier... If the tent heater don't fit under, use a single burner camp stove... Oh, and don't use on a leaky engine...
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 9:02pm
| Generally speaking, when starting an engine with a RoosaMaster system, I've always felt the throttle set at about 800 to 1,000 RPM starts best. I've slowed down many a Gleaner combine from 1200 RPM to 800 RPM and improved the cold starting. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 9:56pm
| We put a 55,000 btu torpedo heater on top of an empty 55 gallon barrel about 5' away from the block for about 5 minutes |
Posted By: Walter(MO)
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 10:38pm
| My 175 diesel has a block heater that I plug in for 1 hour or a little longer so engine doesn't have to do a cold start. This seems to be the easiest start in cold weather which I hope is the best method for the engine. I place throttle about 1/4 open for starting. |
Posted By: gerkendave
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 7:25am
| Thanks for all the reply guys. Currently I always plug the old girl in for a couple hours before use but having two pens of cattle and a pen of my wife's hay burners while working in town sometimes means I get caught a little off guard and need to feed when I get home from work, meaning she hasn't been plugged in. So I've always just used grid heat for 45 seconds crank a few times grid heat for about 30 seconds then crank until fire (usually pretty quick). Always placed the throttle at what I would consider would be a fast idle, just started wondering if there was some secret I was missing out on! Hopefully soon I'll have a loader on the d17 iv for feeding at last minute so I don't need to start the diesel just to drop a bale onto a feeder. |
Posted By: pinball
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:48am
| for me starting a diesel at idle is always the best thing to do. a block heater for winter is a must. a lot of people just leave them plugged in during cold weather. it will save your motor over the long haul as warm oil is better for bearings and your motor will start quicker. a diesel motor works off of very small clearances for compression. excess fuel while trying to start it will wash down the cylinder walls. a warm motor turns over faster which is needed for compression. glow plugs do help with starting but they don't help bearings. just my thoughts. |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 10:08am
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The 8070's like low idle. Once you get a pop out of them stop, count 5 Mississippi's and try again, and then again. On the third time they'll start. 8050 on the other hand like high idle. The 7045 has M&W's and it just fires. I doesn't care where the mercury is at. The 7080 HATES Iowa 7 months out of the year. May 1st though September it's pretty good. But if it could find work pulling a cart full of tourists through the streets of Cancun, it would be very happy. ------------- 2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 10:48am
| Technically, on 8000 series with AmBach pumps, open the throttle wide open and pull back to idle and then start it. |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 11:54am
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On the Military Gensets (Buda) used for standby power for remote Radar sites they stayed at operating temperature and required to take full load within 15 seconds or our radar had to go through complete warm up before coming online. ------------- |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 12:43pm
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I rebuilt a pump once for an Onan 3.4L 6 cylinder diesel in a gen set. Most genset diesel engines run 1800 for our 60 cycles, but this one was set up to run 3600, and it was locked in the wide open position. We didn't run it that way, I backed the low idle screw out so it would idle down. But I could not imagine starting a cold engine and having it go right to 3600! lol! They were supposedly piped warm water all the time so it wouldn't technically be cold upon startup. Most diesel engines are at start fuel when you start them, but moving the throttle to about 1/3 way up helps keep it in start fuel while spinning over with the starter, or as it begins firing and tries speeding up on it's own. Some inline pumps use a magnet to hold it in start fuel until you get to 1200 or more rpm, JD uses this. Not only is it holding it in excess fuel, it's also retart timing to start mode. You can pull slightly on the shut off knob to help "break" it off the magnet, but many times they will just die. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 5:41pm
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My latest method of starting the forklift( Buda BD153 diesel) with 'lots' of blowby.... is to turn key on,to run fuel pump,give 4 squirts of ether to teh air intake(aka F150 system), pedal to the floor, turn key to start..keeping it there until engine actually revs fairly high. If cool...this works, when really cold, I need to do this routine twice. Once it's good and hot, only need turn key to start like a normal guy would do to a normal machine. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:08pm
So I should open it full then back to low idle before I turn the key? I will try it. Thank you. ------------- 2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:08pm
If it still has the manual fuel shutoff pull that out and slowly push it in while turning the engine over and it will start and run at low idle without the rev up ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:52pm
| You can remove the magnet from the rack rod on the inline Bosch to lower the rev on startup.My 8070 is this way and still speeds up at start but nothing like the Deeres and like Blue says,you can crank while holding shut off and slowly release for no rev.....I'm not aware of any Deeres being short lived because of their start up method,just saying. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:38am
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Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:16pm
| Running them everyday seems to help also. My primary feeding and snow removal tractor used to be a D282 powered Farmall 560. Good batteries,glow plugs, block heater and starts were no problem 😊. |
Posted By: Tim NH
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:09pm
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I use an outdoor pool timer Dave. They are the heavy duty timer. I set it for 3 hours of heat, starts right up like summer time. Tim ------------- 1950 WD 1959 D14 1955 WD45 1976 7000 B 207 |
Posted By: modirt
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:22am
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I've never been very good at blindly following directions....even worse when the directions run counter to what seems reasonable to me. That would seem to be the case with this cold start procedure. I have in front of me a manual for a diesel tractor that also says to open the throttle 3/4 to wide open to start......then back off to idle once it does. Thinking of the reason why, I can only guess that with a cold engine, at normal idle speed, there isn't enough vaporized fuel available to get it to ignite......so you have to "flood it". Then once it fires......enough heat is generated to get a second fire, a third, and so on. Glow plugs would do the same and a block heater even more better as far as providing a high enough temp to get diesel fuel to ignite. And then there was that can of ether......ether being much more volatile ignites at the cold temps. If an open throttle is common practice to cold start a diesel, I'd never heard of it. Probably because we used to use ether, but later switched to make sure all the tractors that we used that had to make a cold start got electric block heaters on them and they were always plugged in the night before. I guess what troubles me most about cold starting a diesel is what that cold oil is doing......or not if it's so thick it won't move, not to mention the load on an already cold battery to get that heavy load moving. Perhaps you get around that with 15w-40 oil? And lastly, when it was really cold (0*F and colder), we started blending #1 fuel oil in the tank to keep the fuel from gelling up.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:35am
| Modern oil is amazing stuff. 15W-40 should flow cold better than "old" straight viscosity oil. If you used 40w or 50w in the heavy work of summer time, and switch to 30w for winter, the modern 15w should still flow much better. When you gotta start one, you do what you gotta do. Start up is the hardest thing on an engine of anything at any time of year. But, we bought them to use them, so you use them when you have to. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:39am
| Again, each engine design has its correct way of cold starting. Different fuel injection systems is one difference. Another is DIRECT injection or PRE-COMBUSTION chamber, of which there must be at least half-dozen different ways to do that. Manifold heaters and actual glow plugs inside the combustion chamber is something else to consider. For those who think 15W-40 is a Winter use engine oil, try an oil change of 10W-30 diesel oil and you won't believe how much faster the engine cranks on a zero degree morning. Faster cranking means easier starting !! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:09am
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I use 10W-30 year around on everything most times. The 7050 will get 15W-40 if I know I'm not going to use it in the winter and that one usually gets all the heavy work. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:35am
10W 30 flows better than 15w40 flows better than SAE30. No argument here. I don't use the 7045 much in the winter, so the 15w40 stays in it. A couple hours of block heater, good batteries/cables/ground/starter, and it spins good and starts IF I need it.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:42am
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Does not really matter where the throttle is on a cold start of ANY diesel. The governor as the cranking starts is at FULL Fuel until the engine comes up to speed, that is just normal, cranking until see oil pressure with the fuel shut off will allow oil pressure to come up prior to a harsh start but even during cranking there is a period of low oil flow with lack of lubrication to some components, just a fact of internal combustion engines life. As to going WOT on a cold block, at least allow the head to start to warm prior to hard throttling as the heat and sudden pressure could cause stress fracture cracking and Yes, a block heater aids all these as well gasoline engines in winter. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 9:01am
As Dr said above, different fuel injection systems require different procedures. Some do indeed require throttle movement to at least 1/3 travel to put it into start fuel position. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 10:23am
Come on up (we could use some time anyway), and I'll let you start one specific tractor of mine when it's nice and MI cold, 1 day with no throttle move, the next day you can move it up. Once you do that, see if you still think it doesn't matter.
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Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:21am
| I saw the original post and got excited, because I've wondered the same thing, but about Allis 433I and 2800 engines....now I'm still confused...seems about like asking which shade of orange is "correct"...everyone has a preference. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:47am
True Creston, but in this case, it's the equipment that has the preference, and it's up to you to learn it! 
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:53am
That's the way it was always explained to me. Likewise, excessively long cranking during startup could do the same cylinder washing. Or, did the improved AC diesel engines (that had piston cooling) have enough crankcase oil pressure during cranking to enable it to be squirted up into cylinder walls? Interesting topic - thanks.
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Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 1:08pm
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My 190xt hates the cold. Same as our 6060. With my shed not near an outlet, I am looking for other sources of "startup heat" ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:09pm
| Charlie,if you don't mind mixing coolant,there are quick couplers rigged on pickups that mate to ones on equipment that some guys connect to let the pickup warm the equipment using the cooling system..... |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 6:52am
Interesting. I might use a Kero heater with a Tarp over the hood to trap the heat. Not a fan of open flame though ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 5:57pm
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Charlie, If you're talkin about a 190, a perfection 500 Kerosene wick heater should be pretty close to slidin right under the oil pan. Flame is down at the bottom of these, safer than a gas stove, at least... Don't ask me how I know...
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Posted By: gerkendave
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 9:25pm
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Wow guys. Never thought this little question could bring so many answers. I appreciate everyone's insight. Since posting this I have tried throttle open more than normal(1/2) and also tonight just did right above idle. Seems mine likes just above idle. Bumping it up more than that caused excessive black smoke and some coughing/sputtering. Luckily she also gets to sit inside the building which isn't heated but is out of the wind which seems to help. I always plug her in when I know I'll be feeding but sometimes what looks like a lot of hay in the morning is magically gone by that night. Dr.Allis I'm curious about the 10-30 oil. Is that a safe viscosity to use in the heat of summer (sometimes over 100) while actually working the tractor, say like round baling for extended periods of time? What about going with something like the 5-40 the newer diesels are calling for? That technically would gain me the lower weight when cold but retain the higher weight of the 15-40 when warm right? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 3:52pm
| Determine how many Winter starts and hours you will expect the tractor to go thru. 10W-30 is far better than 15W-40 in the Winter if it is a tractor that is expected to start every day. I'd have no problem using it in the Summer months for light work, but for plowing/discing on a 90 degree day it could be border-line light. My Dad didn't put but maybe 25 or 30 hrs on his diesel in the Winter, but it was expected to start when needed and sometimes without much (if any) block heater time. I'd drop the old motor oil from Falls use and replace the oil only (no filters) with straight 10W diesel oil. We ran that thru the Winter months and when Spring came dropped it out and changed oil and filters back to 15W-40. |
Posted By: gerkendave
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2018 at 9:28pm
| Thank you Dr! |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2018 at 6:17pm
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I need to correct myself on a previous post. I said I started my XT at 1/2 throttle and come back to a 1/4 upon startup. That is incorrect. Yesterday I started my XT for the first time since hay season ended. 40 degrees, without thinking of the post I had previously put up, I moved the throttle to 1/4, preheat for 30 seconds, turned her over and she almost started immediately. 30 more seconds of preheat, she fired right up and I pulled her back to a 1\8 throttle. It had been a year since my last cold start, obviously I was wrong. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: Ranse
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2018 at 10:38pm
| I have a 2-60 White, it has a Fiat engine in it. I try not to use it at all in cold weather. But if I have to, I plug the crank case heater in for at least an hour. It also helps if I put a battery charger on it as well, and switch it to jump while cranking. It seems to help this tractor if you pull the throttle back some, but it don't always work. Sometimes you run the battery down before it starts. In that case, go back in the house for another hour and try it again later. I've spent a half day many times getting this tractor started. I also have a 4835 New Holland. It also has a Fiat engine, but with a block heater. The block heater is far superior over the crank case heater. It still usually needs about an hour, but it's just turn the key and go no problem. |