D17 IV Diesel Block Heater
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=155812
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Topic: D17 IV Diesel Block Heater
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Subject: D17 IV Diesel Block Heater
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 10:40am
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I have a D17 IV diesel that I'd like to put a block heater in. I can see a plug on the right side of the engine, which I have pictured below, followed by a larger picture of the right side of the engine. Would this be where I would insert the block heater? What are the pit falls of removing this plug and inserting a block heater? What type of heater should I get for this and where would I obtain one? Thanks for your assistance. Dave   |
Replies:
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 11:37am
| Pretty sure you will have to use a tank style heater VS a block heater.Someone will know how to plumb it and where it needs located so as not to burn it out. |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 2:19pm
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Dave, I have a "tank style" block heater on my D17 III Diesel, and I believe the IV piping would be very similar for this application. The setup works very well in our cold Canadian winters!! The AGCO online parts manual, D17 IV, page 76 Cooling System shows the Diesel Tractor Optional Equipment "Engine Water Heater". The install info is a bit light on the connection to the Head. Mine is connected to (see page 46 Cylinder Head Diesel) part no 74513529 Cover, Cylinder Head Water Outlet. On page 76, the replacement part would be 70240199, same as the blank cover above with a threaded hole for the connection. As per the parts manual, my return feed to the heater comes off the block heater drain. It looks like you have a hose connected the drain in your pics. My installation has rubber hoses, AC used tubing for the heated return to the Block. I have not had an issue with the hose material. Tubing is certainly more reliable. The heater was installed by an AC mechanic with 45 years experience so I am comfortable with the setup. I can send you pic, but it does not show the Head connection - hence the lengthy description above!! Good luck with your project. ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:03pm
| Yes, Leadoff, if you could provide pictures, I'd appreciate it. I need to find an Allis mechanic as you did! |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:32pm
On theD-19D we had, I put the intake hose for the tank heater, into the block drain, LS of the motor, the output hose went above the head, into the bypass hose, with a Y type connection. Draws cold out the bottom, dumps it into the top of the block. Always mount tank type heaters so the tank is vertical, or you will burn out the element...
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Posted By: Roger (NE)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:40pm
| Probably isn't what you had in mind but on smaller engines the lower radiator hose heaters that I've used have worked well. Pretty simple to install and seem to heat the block and radiator in a shorter amount of time than an add on block heater. Not exactly factory type original but readily available from auto parts stores in various hose size diameters and usually not real pricey. Just another option to maybe consider? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 7:10pm
| It appears that D-17 IV might have a turbo on it ?? |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2018 at 6:10pm
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uploads/16209/image.jpg" rel="nofollow - image.jpg Dave, Hope this pic file goes thru. The AGCO parts book shows a 1000 watt Heater. I do not have the duty of mine handy (tractor is in Ontario and I am in Calgary) but it is probably in the 1000 to 1500 watt range, which seems to cover most of what is available from suppliers such as TSC, NAPA etc. I do not think it is OEM AC. The Heater is supported from the Power Steering piping in behind - not much weight. Good luck If the pic does not go thru let me know and we can email ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 9:46am
| Ok, I see. It was just spliced into the hose that comes down from the top and into the side of the engine beside the plug I was inquiring about. That shouldn't be too hard to do. Thanks for the picture. Dave |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 10:47am
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Dave, I did not realize your hose was connected to the top of the engine. I recall making sure the hose would not touch the exhaust system. As I noted in my first post, the cylinder head connection is right next to the battery. It looks like your hose is headed in that direction!! Good luck with your project ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 2:02pm
| Well, the hose goes up, connects to a tube that goes around the exhaust manifold and then the tube connects to a piece (don't know proper name for it) which the top radiator hose connects to on the opposite side. I tried to look at the parts manual, but either do not have the right manual or just can't figure out the parts that everything connects to, so don't have proper names for everything. |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 2:13pm
| Hard for me to match up the manual pictures with actual, but that could be the thermostat housing the tube goes to. |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2018 at 7:22pm
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Dave, The online AGCO parts book is a good reference to help us get the location of the connection at the top of the engine. Search for AGCO parts book, follow thru to the AGCO Parts Book Home Page Click on Guest User - view books Enter D17 in the model box and hit search Select D17 IV On the left column click on line/page 46, D17 Diesel Cylinder Head The Cylinder Head is shown from the front of the tractor Part no 26 / 74513529 is a flat blank plate held by two cap screws This is where my hose is connected to the top of the engine. A threaded nipple goes thru the middle of the plate. Now for reference scroll down the left column to page/line 76, Cooling System Water Heater Diesel Tractor This view shows the factory option Coolant Heater System for the D17 IV Diesel The connection to the top of the engine is into part no 6 / 70240199 which I believe is the same as the blank cover we looked at above. This is how my tractor is piped. From the diagram and parts list you can see AC was using tubing for the upper piping and hose below. I have had no issue with the hose. This location gets the heated coolant directly into the engine cylinder and block to optimize the heating distribution. My experience has been after 15 minutes from Heater startup the block area between the two connections and the inlet manifold starts to warm up. Good luck with your install ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 9:34am
| OK, I was able to get into the parts book and to the pages you indicate. I guess my big problem is understanding the diagrams they have. If they used actual pictures it would probably help me. Thanks for your assistance. Dave |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 12:20pm
Well, braved the snow and wind out to the shed and got some more pictures with the side hood off. This shows the hose connecting to the tube, the tube going over the manifold and around the exhaust, then connecting into what I believe is the thermostat housing. This does not seem to be what your hose is connecting to, but wonder if spicing into this hose with a heater would work.    |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 12:46pm
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Dave Great pics. You are correct, your hose/tubing is piped into the back of the thermostat housing. That should provide direct access to the coolant passage ways in the head and block. You should be fine splicing your Heater into that hose/tubing system. The heated coolant that comes out of the top of your new Heater will work its way into the thermostsat housing, then progress downwards into the cylinder head and the engine block and eventually come out the bottom connection and back into the heater, to complete the heat cycle. Monitor the temperature of the hoses to ensure you are getting the circuit flowing the way it should when you plug in your heater. It should not take too long for the bottom hose to get warm and confirm the circuit is flowing. Good luck ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 12:50pm
| Boy, thanks for the confirmation and all your assistance. While it seemed to make sense to me, I'm always a little hesitant to do something that may have the potential to cause some damage without a bit of assurance. Dave |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2018 at 1:44pm
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Dave, Pleasure to help. You are absolutely right in making certain the design of your modification is correct. The tractor cooling system thermostat valve inside the housing where your hose connects should remain closed when you first start the heater. This will direct the heated coolant back down into the head and block which is what you want. Eventually, the system will warm up the engine to the point where the thermostat valve spring loading setup might open the valve letting some of the heated coolant flow towards the radiator (how it should operate when the tractor is running). This would be fine, as long as the engine is getting enough of the heat to assist starting. A lot depends on how you plan to operate the Heater - plug in for an hour before you start the tractor, or leave plugged in overnight etc for longer periods. The Heater should have a thermal cutoff like most cars/trucks so that could impact how it works over time. Just some additional operational thoughts I had that might be helpful. Please don't hesitate if you need any additional questions Good luck and stay warm ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2018 at 3:09pm
| So, it will pull cold coolant from the bottom, into and thru the heater, and dump it back in to the thermostat housing? Went looking for a tube style heater today. Boy, TSC sure doesn't have much tractor related anymore. Will have to explore other parts store options. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2018 at 5:57pm
Search Katt block heaters, on line, then ask a potential parts place, if they have them in stock, most will carry a universal type kit. D-19D would take about 45 minutes, to warm up. On snowy nights, I would plug in all night, as the D-19 was the loader tractor. A properly warmed motor usually had 4 barn cats on top, for heat retention...
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Dave (NE) wrote:Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2018 at 6:35pm
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Dave, I agree, our local TSC used to have a lot more tractor related products. However, their Allis Chalmers Orange paint is an excellent match and well priced!! Had a quick look online and here are some suggestions for a Heater.... - O'Reillys Auto Parts, Zerostart 1500 Watt Circulation Tank Heater part no 2204037, $132, 1000 watt model $121 - NAPA, Kats 13100 1000 watt aluminum circulating tank heater, $55 - AutoZone Auto Parts, Kats 13100 (same as NAPA above), $52 - Automotive Auto Parts, Kats 13100 $56, they also have a cheaper model, light duty!! The Kats 13100 looks like a good Heater, and 1000 watts was what AC supplied in the factory option Heater I noted in earlier posts. 1000 watts should do the job. Any good Auto Parts store should be able to help you out. Also, every time I searched for the Heater, Amazon Online Shopping popped up and their price is in the $55-60 range. Hope this helps your search ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 3:06pm
| Well, found a Kat tank style heater at a different TSC. Took the packaging apart and the connections are 3/4" outside diameter. The hose I am trying to connect to is 1/2" inside diameter. They knew nothing about plumbing the heater or obtaining different hoses and appropriate connections. Plan on going to a car parts place next and see what they may have. |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2018 at 4:06pm
| Most of that type heater are sized such that 5/8 hose is tight and 3/4 is an loose fit but will clamp down. The "Y" that comes with the heater may fit into the 1/2" hose but you may need to make an adapter to reduce to your 1/2" hose. That's been my experience with several brands over the years. Follow the instructions, they work fine when positioned and installed right. 1000 watts will also work on some of the decent timers, so you can use one if you want the heater to come on at a certain time, without having to go out and plug it in. |
Posted By: Travis(NE)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:25pm
| It looks like yours may have had a tank heater on it and was replaced with a piece of hose. That hex plug you show in your first picture is actually the oil drain hole for the turbo on the D19. |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 9:29am
| Well, I picked up a tank heater at TSC yesterday and have the tractor over at a local guy that works on ag equipment when not farming to install and look at some leaks, etc. I'll let him figure out how to do the hook ups. I post a picture and let you know when it is done. Dave |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 10:30am
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Stopped by the mechanic's yesterday to see what progress he had made on the heater install and a few other "small" items I had mentioned. Quite a shock when I walked into the shop. He wasn't there and I noticed the tractor was all torn apart! Apparently, when he was running it, he noticed a noise. It become more prominent and the fan pulley broke off. Sure was fortunate that I never attempted to drive it over to him for the repairs and can't have a better place for a breakdown. Anyway, the heater has been installed and he indicated it works well. Once everything is back together I'll post a pix and provide details on all that he worked on. Dave ------------- Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain. |
Posted By: Brian F(IL)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 11:22am
| Sounds like you got lucky on the timing of the breakdown. Looking forward to pics. |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 11:41am
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Dave, Glad to hear the Heater install went well and hope all works out with the repair. Looking forward to seeing your pics ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: DCAC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 3:31pm
| Dave (NE), might I ask the serial number of your tractor? |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 4:19pm
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Serial #84859. It is a 1966 year model. ------------- Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain. |
Posted By: DCAC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 4:23pm
| Thanks, I'm looking for #79556 |
Posted By: DCAC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 4:55pm
| Thanks, I'm looking for #79556 |
Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 5:51pm
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I know Im nobody on here, but, Im restoring serial no 84882, really close to yo kin. Factory hookup From lower block plug as in yo picture, thru little tank warmer then on to top hole on left side of water pmp with cutoff also. where is your water temp sender hole? mine is in thermo hosing wher your hose shows installed . That is for water temp. Most accurate place, top of the head. I,d send pics but aint figured it all out yet. ------------- Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired ! |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 7:07pm
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Levipatch, Welcome to the group and good luck with your project. My earlier posts on this thread, starting on Nov 22 might be of help to you.... - how to access the free AGCO online parts manual, and locate two key parts diagrams - the first diagram is the factory or dealer installed AC block heater and engine tie-ins - the second diagram shows the diesel cylinder head showing water outlets - my cylinder block connection is different than Dave(Ne)'s but both should work Here is a pic of my heater. I do not have a pic of the cylinder connection. It is right next to the battery, as per the earlier notes and cylinder block diagram. uploads/16209/059.JPG" rel="nofollow - uploads/16209/059.JPG Hope this info helps you with your project ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2019 at 7:18pm
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Its like mine but goes to water pump. Manifold be warm on hose on hot day. Oh you don't have hot days do u?... Cold up ther?? LOL. Funny how his and mine are 23 numbers apart, and his is way over ther and mine way over here. Mine was one owner its entire life,never been messed with,,,,Herein lies the problem???? Thanks for the welcome and imfo... Im sure I will need lots of advice....... Billy ------------- Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired ! |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 10:32am
Well, what I thought would be a fairly simple tank heater install turned out to be quite a project. Weather cleared up enough yesterday so got the tractor home. In addition to the heater, a water pump pulley, various washers and gaskets related to the a couple injectors, solenoid for the glow plug, starter button, and rebuilt injector pump, etc. Turned out to be quite a bill. Anyway, here are some pictures of the heater.    ------------- Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain. |
Posted By: Leadoff
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 10:55am
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Dave(NE) Congrats on a successful project. Very robust looking Heater and piping. As noted in an earlier post by a Forum Member, watch out for cats using your new heat source!! Lots of room on top of the exhaust manifold for a nice nap. ------------- 1963 D17D Series III. 1965 D15 Series II. 1965 D17 Series IV. 1975 185. 1978 716H. 1979 716H. 1965 780 Harvester/1R&DC. 1957 Model 73 SC 4 Furrow Plow |
Posted By: Dave (NE)
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 11:22am
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Yeah, glad to have it done and back home. As it turns out, may not have needed the heater, as the glow plug wasn't working due to the solenoid needing to be replaced. It had always started with the glow plug prior to this winter and I thought maybe due to the extra cold I needed the heater. Oh well, this should be better anyway. Now I have another question that came up (and I asked it in a separate thread) but the oil pressure gauge is always maxed out. Don't know if it is a problem with the gauge or something more serious. One more thing to work on. ------------- Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 3:52pm
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Looks like a nice install for sure. Do you have the original style oil pressure gauge or one with numbers? There are two types of factory gauge. The first one is for the bypass filter gas engines and max pressure is 30. The full flow gas engines used a different gauge with a higher range. I'm not sure if the second gauge is the same between gas and diesel. There is a pressure regulator in the block on the left side towards the front. Normal oil pressure is 35 psi. Relief flow from the pressure regulator oils the timing and injection pump gears. Setting the regulator too high can starve the timing gears for oil. There were two types of tubes used to connect the pump to the engine, the later design has another relief valve in it to prevent cold oil pressure surges from blowing out the oil filter gasket. What I would do is get a known accurate gauge with numbers and set the oil pressure to 35 psi on a hot engine running at full speed. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |