Biodiesel and Ethanol
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Topic: Biodiesel and Ethanol
Posted By: Coke
Subject: Biodiesel and Ethanol
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 8:54pm
Dunno if this belongs here, or if there is a 'General' area.
Does biodiesel have the same storage issues as ethanol does? Stations round here sell biodiesel blend up to 20% and I'll bet some don't even label it. Found this document but not sure what it's saying, if I'm B5 it might be OK, B20 is more hit or miss.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378382014003361" rel="nofollow - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378382014003361
------------- 1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Replies:
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 9:12pm
I wouldn't use anything, but real diesel, that bio stuff has algae problems, particularly in plastic tanks. Who needs more headaches...
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Posted By: Coke
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 9:49pm
What I'm saying is round here, in the corn belt, who knows whats going on. All gas has up to 10% ethanol, we only get one diesel nozzle y'know? Some have the biodiesel blend stickers on, some don't, but I wouldn't take it as a guarantee.
I don't store it anywhere but the tanks of the vehicles, but the D17 isn't going to see massive amounts of use, so I'm a bit worried about it sitting.
Don't get me wrong, I love biodiesel and ethanol, just worrying about it's stability issues.
------------- 1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 10:06pm
My BMW specified no more than 5% bio diesel. I think BMW was more concerned about quality than anything. I remember pulling into a Kum & Go and finding their pump labeled "may contain up to 20% bio diesel." I got back into my car and drove to the next station. At work I had a remote radio site that ran on solar with a diesel backup. It was really a generator with a solar assist. One year of bio diesel and the algae headaches caused me to become very particular about the fuel. This was stored in a steel tank, no less.
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Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 12:54am
our stations all say "no bio diesel here", so they musta got the hint?
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 6:07am
In the summer months Minnesota requires all diesel fuel to be 20% bio. Now I order my fuel after October 1 and before May 1 so I can get the 5% bio diesel. But you have to check because many will still sell a blend of more than 5% in the winter and more than 20% in summer. Filled up my semi truck last winter and as soon as it got around zero it gelled up even though I had treated it. That was fun. My old supplier sometimes sold 40% and it ruined two injector pumps for me. Since Minnesota mandated biodiesel all my steel diesel tanks on my equipment have rust in them to some degree. Something that I never saw before biodiesel.
I'd prefer 0% bio but in Minnesota, the communist state that it is, pure diesel fuel is against the law.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot
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Posted By: modirt
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 6:34am
Interesting to see the comments from BioD users. I was not aware of the storage or user problems with BioD. The problems with ethanol are well known.
What I have always found more interesting is how the two of them are made. Ethanol is made in plants via the fermentation of corn.....essentially large moonshine stills. Same exact process. The only thing they do different is to contaminate it with regular gasoline when it leaves the plant, so as to prevent somebody from hijacking a tanker truck and selling it as moonshine. Ethanol plants are regulated by ATF. BTU value of ethanol is about 70% or so of regular gasoline. So as a fuel to put in a standard gasoline engine it kinda sucks, and that is before the problems with water and corrosion start showing up. Worse, when they first started, they used more BTW's of energy to make the stuff than they got out of it in ethanol. Would have made more sense to burn the propane and/or natural gas it took to make the stuff instead. But it does take a lot of corn out of storage. Corn price (value of ethanol) now being tied pretty close to the btu value of unleaded gasoline at the pump.
BioD on the other hand, is a straight forward chemical process. Made by mixing some type of oil (from vegetable oil or animal fat) with lye and methanol. No heat or other processes other than separation and cleanup needed. You can actually make BioD in your kitchen in a two liter soda bottle. Takes just a few seconds to see the process unfold. Outcome is 90% BioD and 10% glycerin. BTU value of BioD being closer to 90% that of regular #2 diesel and has the same lubricating properties as diesel with sulfur. It is also a solvent, so using it tends to cleanup the fuel systems. Back when it first started, there were a lot of complaints about how it gunked things up. It will also gel at a higher temp than diesel, which screws things up in cold weather. Most diesel engines will run on 100% BioD with no modifications. Not so with E80 or higher.
What has also hampered BioD is there is no vast surplus of oil crops (like soybeans) like there is for corn. Most of it was already spoken for in the food industry. McDonalds doesn't care what oil for their french fries costs. You can't pay more soy oil than it's BTU value at the pump is worth, or you will go broke. A lot of the early BioD plants ignored this and went bankrupt as a result.
So BioD always seemed to me to be the better of the two. But both have their flaws in comparison to the oil based fuels.
But if you ever run out of the oil based fuels, which mankind will at some point, at least you have an option for a renewable liquid fuel you can dump in the tank so you don't have to go back to farming with horses.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 6:40am
I've been of the opinion for some time that the issues with biodiesel can be solved with some good research and some smart chemists and chemical engineers working on it. Maybe not, but I think so. When economics demand it (if?), that work will begin more in earnest.
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Posted By: only AC orange
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 6:42am
I have been through Fuel algae problems and they weren't fun! When my D-21 was overhauled 6-7 years ago, it had mostly sat previously and not used (yes, I had used biodiesel). After overhauling, wanted to get some hours on it by plowing/chiseling - fuel gelled, stop flowing and was it a mess! Ended up draining fuel system, flushing out, putting in fresh pure diesel, and a coil of number 2 copper in fuel tank - copper is an enemy of algae - copper sulfate used to treat algae in ponds/lakes. NO problems since!
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 7:58am
With daily use,biodiesel isn't a problem....it's the setting that makes the ugly show up. So far,I can still get straight diesel off the tank truck.Still have rusty fuel tanks from one winter of bio....
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 8:01am
BioD has 90% the BTU of petro diesel. It's not a huge difference, but you are losing a few HP when you use it. This transforms into a few less MPG. The same goes for E10. It has about 3.5% less BTU than gasoline. There are those who say that E10 burns cleaner than gasoline when the engine needs a tune up. I'm not one who skips tune ups, so that argument falls on my deaf ears.
They label E10 as "Super" here in Iowa. This harks back to the day when they blended ethanol with 87 octane gasoline and ended up with an 89 octane fuel. Now they blend the ethanol with 84 octane gasoline with a resulting octane rating of 87. There's nothing Super about it anymore.
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Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 8:58am
I avoid ethanol when ever possible. It is too hard on fuel system components. My chainsaw will not start on ethanol. Pure gasoline or 100LL works great in my chainsaw. Even my saw dealer told me to not use ethanol gasoline. There are STC's (Standard Type Certificate) available for many piston aircraft. No ethanol is allowed. The ROTAX 912 engine in a Flight Design CTSW requires premium unleaded no ethanol gasoline. I can tell a difference in my D-17 when 10% ethanol is used. Actually burns more gallons per hour than pure gasoline. Ethanol may help the grain industry but it does nothing to help our engines. As for bio-diesel......keep it. Not for my engines. I work too hard to make a living and can not afford to put crap in my fuel tanks.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 11:54am
And then I'll here some liberal...... farmer mind you, that complains that farming has turned into a corn and soybean industry only. Two crops only. More disease, eggs in one basket thing. I agree but then they are 100% for more ethanol and bio diesel subsidies and/or mandates. It just doesn't make sense.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot
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Posted By: jiminnd
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 5:41pm
Not going to get into any arguments, just my experience, have used 5% bio and 10% ethanal for 20 plus years, absolutely no trouble. Just my experience.
------------- 1945 C, 1949 WF and WD, 1981 185, 1982 8030, unknown D14(nonrunner)
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 5:52pm
That works if you buy it and use it right away, jim. I wouldn't recommend buying it and storing it for a couple of months or more. I use E10 in my car. I pay up the nose for regular or premium without ethanol if I'm putting it in a container and using it over the summer or winter for my lawn mower or snow blower. I've changed too many previously white, now black and clogged, filters on my gensets that had a tank with a six month supply store of 5% diesel.
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2018 at 10:09pm
modirt wrote:
BTU value of ethanol is about 70% or so of regular gasoline. |
This is incorrect.
One gallon of 89 (RON) unleaded gasoline yields 124,000btu.
One gallon of ethanol yields 76,000btu.
76,000 / 124,000 = 61.29%. A little more than half the fuel energy.
The biggest issues with ethanol include:
1) It's polar, and caustic... ph 7.33, so it's a base. It etches away the tank, fuel lines, and pot-metal castings of fuel system components... and includes it in heavier gasoline fractions and water as black goo. 2) it is extremely hygroscopic... it acts as a dessicant- will withdraw moisture from the air, even when in suspension with gasoline. 3) It's a carbohydrate, which means it will not dissolve into, or be dissolved by... a hydrocarbon. It can only be in suspension, and if allowed to settle, it will stratify in layers with water precipitated to the bottom of the tank, followed by supersaturated ethanol, then gasoline's heaviest fractions, with the lighter ones allowed to evaporate off. Evenutally, it turns to a nasty, black goo noted above.
The performance issue with ethanol blends, is that the flame speed of carbohydrate fuels, and the expansion curve pressures are totally different from gasoline. Using a mixture of ethanol and gasoline in an internal combustion engine, is exactly the same as using a combination of wood-chips and black powder in a high-power rifle cartridge, or the converse... using a mixture of modern smokeless rifle powder and corn starch in a damascus shotgun barrel... or worse yet, trying to run a steam engine on dry pine slabs, or wet oak logs- one cannot optimize for two different burn cycle constants at the same time, and ANY repeating burn cycle is substantially complicated by the inclusion of water.
If you build a fuel system from the git-go to utilize Ethanol, it's possible to get a really great result. Same goes for methanol... my Grandfather distilled woodchips to make solvents AND fuel his Waterloo Boy sawmill engine during the fuel rationing of WW2... and it did just fine... but he didn't mix gasoline with it, and sure as heck didn't drink it...
Biodiesel's challenge, is that the bio part is naturally very uncontrolled at times... and it's character is very subject to seasonal challenges. I've had plenty of friends with good experiences with bio in trucks they run on bio they produce on their own... they make their own production systems, and fit up their trucks and Jeeps, running on old-time mechanical injection turbodiesels... and they do just fine (aside from government regulations having a fit over not paying road-fuel taxes, right?). I've got a buddy who uses home-brew bio in a Lister, and it generates power and heat for his hunting cabin just fine. I've run bio grades in my company service truck, and had many instances where it was just fine, but I've had plenty of instances that gelled up lines, plugged up filters and ruined injection pumps... so we don't run diesel service trucks anymore.
From an engineering standpoint, it's best to build it to run on one, or the other, and from that, you can have a great system. Don't mix 'em, it just makes a terrible pile of variables with which to contend.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 6:43am
Since the early 1980's until now, I have had six F-150 pickups. They all have used 10% Ethanol exclusively. I just added up the odometers and I am at 990,000 trouble-free miles on all of them. I also have used 10% in all my GM, Chrysler and Ford cars/vans...again zero problems. I never use it in my lawn mowers. I don't have a chain saw.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 6:57am
EPA tests have proven that you get about 4% less MPG with E10. Your pump price should reflect this. $3.00 regular gasoline should mean that E10 would be priced at $2.88. Unless your state gives a motor tax break on E10, you are quietly paying a little more in road tax. Here in Iowa regular is priced at 30 cents above E10, across the board and everywhere. I wasn't a resident here when all that went into effect, but I suspect that regular gasoline is being taxed at a much higher rate. Regular gasoline here is priced well above the national average. E10 is priced near the national average.
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Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 8:04am
My two chin saws do not know what pure gasoline is. They always run great. The E 10 sits in the lawn mower and lawn tractor tanks all winter with additive. twenty some years with the tractor and 19 with the Z turn. nary a problem with the gas.
I am not proponent of E 10, but normally don't blame all my problems on E 10.
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Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 8:57am
Got to love politicians and their rose colored vegetable powered world glasses. Just remember, You will do it and You will like it, we have ways of making You like it, now do it.
------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2018 at 9:34am
Bio fuels need to be used, not stored. For winter fuel storage in equipment, I've found that filling equipment tanks with best quality fuels along with a good fuel additive works best. I repeat, that is best - not perfect. Locally our Shell stations usually have best gasoline & diesel. I say that cause both our gas & diesel vehicles usually get better mpg with Shell products, no matter the time of year. Outside of Illinois, My diesel pickup's better mpg results were from fuel purchased from FleetFarm in Owatonna, MN & some BP stations in other states. Most Shell stations are good. Some here & there are not so good. Just got to keep track. You never forget where you purchased chitty fuel.
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2018 at 8:31am
AC7060IL wrote:
Bio fuels need to be used, not stored. |
This advice is paramount... When ANY blend exists, this is when all bad things have time to happen. Keep it fresh and moving, and one will have the least issues.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2018 at 8:41am
IF your equipment has commercially made plastic fuel lines or components INSIDE the fuel system DO NOT USE BIO fuel, will disintegrate from the basic(pH) nature of the Bio mess. My Ford 7.3 owners manual states that FLAT OUT much as many of the GM Duramax manuals, fuel lines, fuel transfer pump casings and parts, even the Tanks are susceptible to damage. Late model tractors of all variety have plastic fuel lines and tanks/support items as filter housings. Buddy of mine USED to make his own bio, ruined his truck parts, his Bobcat and One older but recent build Deere fuel systems where had to replace all the plastic parts $$$$$. Was almost pure Bio but even in small amounts of blend has a same reaction just takes longer.
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Posted By: Coke
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2018 at 6:59pm
So what's this low sulfur stuff about? What's the sulfur for?
I been looking at all my local diesel places, they all seem to be doing Bio. Not a Shell near me that sells diesel.
------------- 1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2018 at 8:33pm
Unfortunately, sulfur has been mostly removed from diesel fuel. The sulfur acted as a lubricant in the injector pump. A side benefit of the sulfur was as a micro nutrient to the soil. Sulfur has also been scrubbed from coal fired plants. Sulfur, in large enough quantities, can cause acid rain. This is bad for marble. We now have to add sulfur to our fields.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 4:26am
Coke wrote:
So what's this low sulfur stuff about? What's the sulfur for?
I been looking at all my local diesel places, they all seem to be doing Bio. Not a Shell near me that sells diesel. | I *think* the railroads still use diesel with sulfur. Don't quote me until you've looked it up. In any event, I doubt you'll be able to purchase any fuel from them. Modern diesels with pollution equipment hanging on them require Ultra Low Sulfur fuel. "They" say you should add a lubricant to your fuel if you are running older equipment that was designed for older diesel fuel. I've looked up some diesel fuels and some claim to have added a lubricant of their own, depending on location. This makes me wonder if some oil companies even sell their own brand of diesel fuel or if they just market some generic stuff.
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Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 9:21am
Dave H wrote:
...I am not proponent of E 10, but normally don't blame all my problems on E 10.
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Same here.
There is no "pure gas" or "no-ethanol" option where I live and has not been in the 20+ years I have lived here.
I've wore the crankshaft out on a push mower after 16 years- original carb still worked.
I've got a John Deere 325 lawn tractor that's been mowing grass since 1997. No fuel-related issues.
I've got a Troy-Bilt Horse tiller with a Tecumseh HH60 built in 1976. No problems.
15 year old chain saw- no issues.
In my AC-B, I use standard 87 octane with an ethanol treatment. So far, so good.
However, I buy the gas and use the gas. No gas sits more than a month. At the end of the season, everything gets run dry. I understand that this is easier in a homeowner situation as I'm not buying in bulk, but my entire experience with E-10 is that when bought and used, it causes no issues. Sitting around? Oh yeah, problems. At the beginning of this summer, I tore into an old Wards tractor as a project for my son. It had been in a barn for over 10 years. The fuel bowl was the worse I had ever seen. The brass float had pinhole leaks all around it at the exact level where the fuel sat for so long....and the smell....
------------- 1951 B
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 10:21am
Unusual that you can use 87 octane in your chain saw. I have three two cycle pieces of equipment and the manufacturers both recommend premium fuel. As little fuel as they use, I just fill my mix can with premium.
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Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 10:53am
DougS wrote:
Unusual that you can use 87 octane in your chain saw. I have three two cycle pieces of equipment and the manufacturers both recommend premium fuel. As little fuel as they use, I just fill my mix can with premium.
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I mix it out of my larger fuel cans which all have 87. No problems.
All of our gas here has ethanol, not just 87. We are in one of 2 counties in Indiana subject to the EPA's Reformulated Gasoline Program meaning that our gas is "special" gas. In addition to other requirements, it has to be "oxygenated" which around here is normally accomplished with ethanol.
------------- 1951 B
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Posted By: Coke
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 1:43pm
Is that just Indiana? I've seen a lot of pumps round here that say all gas may contain up to 10% ethanol, and that's all the selections, not just the 87.
As to the biodiesel, I know for sure a bunch of places round here get their diesel from a different place than they get their gas, some even have stickers to that effect.
------------- 1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Posted By: Dan Hauter
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 2:02pm
I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles using ethanol with no problems. Biodiesel, however, is another matter. Avoid it.
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Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 2:20pm
Coke wrote:
Is that just Indiana? I've seen a lot of pumps round here that say all gas may contain up to 10% ethanol, and that's all the selections, not just the 87.
As to the biodiesel, I know for sure a bunch of places round here get their diesel from a different place than they get their gas, some even have stickers to that effect.
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No. It's not just Indiana. Many places across the country are under the same EPA regulations due to high ozone levels. Where I live, Porter County, Indiana, we are less than 50 miles from Chicago and have steel mills dotting the shoreline of Lake Michigan. While I live in a nice and thoroughly rural location, what goes on at the shoreline and in Chicago places the whole county under these regulations.
In addition to being forced to sell "reformulated" gasoline, many places sell E-10 voluntarily rather than stock a mixture of gasoline types. I want to be clear- E-10 and reformulated are not necessarily the same thing. The E-10 gas can be "reformulated" or not, but most of the reformulated gas is E-10 because it has to be oxygenated. The other compound used to oxygenate gasoline is MTBE which is a carcinogen and has been banned in some places and is being phased out others.
In any event, generally, only 2 types of gas are delivered to any gas station to make 3 grades. 87 and 93 (or 91-92). The pumps then mix the 2 to make midgrade. That mean, obviously, even if the "high test" has no ethanol, whatever proportion of the mix is from the 87 brings its ethanol (if any) along to the midgrade. I would note that one station near me sells E-10, E-20 and E-85. The E-20 was a new one on me but is apparently intended for vehicles made after 2001 and flex-fuel vehicles. I have never used it.
Like I said, though, there is really no non-ethanol choice in most places under the reformulated gas mandate. I guess I could try marinas or airports....but I'm not going to. In fact, there are no marinas that sell "pure gas" in my area either.
Here is a list of the areas where the reformulated gas mandate is in effect:
https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/reformulated-gasoline" rel="nofollow - https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/reformulated-gasoline
Mostly, it's urban locations, but as in my case, one part of the county or area may pull the rest of it in.
------------- 1951 B
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 2:31pm
HoughMade wrote:
All of our gas here has ethanol, not just 87. We are in one of 2 counties in Indiana subject to the EPA's Reformulated Gasoline Program meaning that our gas is "special" gas. In addition to other requirements, it has to be "oxygenated" which around here is normally accomplished with ethanol. |
Oxygentated? Yeah. Your oxygen sensor is going to fix that. Too much oxygen in the exhaust causes your fuel mix to enrich, just as too little oxygen causes your fuel mix to lean out. Watch your mixture switch back and forth rapidly on an engine monitor and you'll see it happening. Too much oxygen hurts your catalytic converter as much too little oxygen. "Ethanol for a cleaner environment" is what they like to put on the pumps here in Iowa. In reality it only helps those who neglect their tune ups. Where I buy my premium the pumps do not have a "may contain up to 10% ethanol" sticker above the premium button.
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Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 3:25pm
On modern vehicles in good repair, the oxygenated fuel does not effect the mixture at all, for the good or for the ill. No improvement. No harm. That's not what the fuel is aimed at. My Silverado is on its original O2 sensor and catalytic converter and has 156,000 miles of trouble-free running so far- all of it on E-10. My Jimmy before that had 188,000 miles on its original O2 sensor and original cat with no problems before I sold it. Both tested quite clean on semi-annual emissions tests. Yes, we have emissions testing in these 2 counties as well.
------------- 1951 B
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