Slow starting
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=154018
Printed Date: 29 Apr 2024 at 7:08am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Slow starting
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Subject: Slow starting
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:26pm
| My Wd45 takes way too long to start proubley 15 seconds cranking at 65 degrees never had a problem before it cranks over fine but just don’t want to start it puffs out smoke when it finally Starts and runs fine.I’m using no choke because I’m afraid I will flood it. |
Replies:
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 12:49pm
| What color of smoke? Check compression. Check ignition for a long blue spark. Is the carb bowl flooding while the engine is not running? |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 1:10pm
| Smoke is black, the bowl isn’t flooding and spark plugs and a tan brown color. |
Posted By: Boss Man
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 7:09pm
|
Check the air cleaner. Could be a wasp nest or something restricting air flow. Sounds like its flooding |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:46pm
| Boss Man- is there a way to pull the top off the air cleaner or the wire mesh to see inside? |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:53pm
Take the hose off that runs from the air cleaner to the carb and try starting it that way. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Allis Wd45 wrote:Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:05pm
| Ok I’m going to give that a try there is dirt in the pipe going town to the oil in the air cleaner is that ok or should it be cleaned. |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:10pm
|
Take the whole air cleaner off the tractor, remove the bowl and the bottom retainer cone inside holding the mesh in, then pull the mesh out and soak the housing and mesh in gasoline then pressure wash and put back together with fresh oil. ------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:17pm
|
You can't just take the mesh our of a WD45 air cleaner. The bottom of the cleaner is crimped, soldered, or welded in (I can't remember which. I swished gas around in mine a bunch of times until it came out clean. In one of Sugarmaker's topics, he actually took one apart then welded it back in place.
|
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 1:42pm
|
I let mine sit in a bucket of kerosene for a few days. then I let it drip out until dry and the schmutz, loosened up from the soaking, was at the bottom of the bucket. But that was for standard dust/dirt and oil on the mesh, not nests. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 3:28pm
|
WC was spot welded. i broke the weld loose and tossed the wire and replaced it with new. It was crumbling and I didn't want bits of steel wool( basically) in my new engine. Cheap and easy fix every 60 years or so. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 4:03pm
| I don't know how much help you can give a guy that won't pull on the choke when starting an engine that he's having trouble getting started. When he finally wears out the starter from excessive cranking times, then maybe he'll try the choke ?? I doubt it. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 4:33pm
Since your last post: Have you made any progress? As mentioned the rubber hose from the air cleaner to the carb can easily be removed and this will bypass the air cleaner from the system. Try to start it that way first. Yep ,a small amount of choke might be needed too. Good luck and let us know what happens. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 9:34pm
| Have you been shutting the gas off and does it sit a week or two between starts. If the gas is left on the needle could be leaking a little causing flooding. I have a D17 that will do that if you don’t shut the gas off. It won’t do it in one day but it will after a week. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:26pm
| I always shut the gas off when I park it and it sat 5 days the day I parked it it was slow starting the first time second was normal. When I moved it 5 days later I started it 3 times and it took a long time all 3 times. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:29pm
| So your saying that if it’s already getting too much gas choke it and flood it out more. Real smart. Usually 1/4 choke 1/4 throttle starts fine I’ve tried full choke and all throttle positions none different. I know how to run a choke lever. Maybe you’ll figure out to quit choking the engine when there’s so much gas in there the plugs are wet. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 11:29pm
| Dr Allis So your saying that if it’s already getting too much gas choke it and flood it out more. Real smart. Usually 1/4 choke 1/4 throttle starts fine I’ve tried full choke and all throttle positions none different. I know how to run a choke lever. Maybe you’ll figure out to quit choking the engine when there’s so much gas in there the plugs are wet. |
Posted By: LionelinKY
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 12:50am
|
Check your manifold gaskets. It might be getting too much air through them (without any fuel) and not enough up through the carb vaporizing the fuel as it goes. This would require longer cranking times to get enough fuel atomized in the cylinders along with the air to get a good fire. The sooner you reach the ideal air:fuel ratio, the sooner it will start. If your plugs are still a tan brown color and gas isn't running out of the carb, then you are not anywhere near the point of flooding out the engine and would probably benefit from an engine rotation or 2 with full choke and then no choke. That is how my WD45 likes it. Whether manually or electrically starting, a crank or 2 with full choke normally gets her running. If I am not quick enough and she dies, 1 more crank without any choke and she is ready to work. If your plugs got wet at all, they would be blackened pretty quick and start fouling soon after. You say it runs fine after a puff of black smoke and starts. Sure sounds to me like you are having a delay in getting a rich enough air:fuel mixture to the spark to make it run. The fuel in the bowl is vaporizing naturally but then the fumes are just hanging out in the manifold as they slowly work their way up without the proper draft up through the carb. By the time these fumes actually reach the cylinder, they are much richer than the ideal ratio which is why you see that puff of black smoke being fired off. Once the engine actually starts running, it creates a stronger draft up through the carb regardless if your manifold gaskets are good or bad. This may be why it runs ok at this point. HTH ------------- "My name is Lionel and I'm an Allisoholic" |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:02am
|
Of course the plugs are wet after cranking and cranking. Choke or no choke, if it doesn’t start quickly, it’s drawing fuel in and when it starts, it will be rich. The plugs being wet after a lot of cranking doesn’t necessarily mean flooding is why it wouldn’t start in the first place. If there are no restrictions in the intake, I’d look at whether the spark is strong enough. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:04am
| New information !!! Now he claims to have been using the choke sometimes with results being the same...no/difficult start. "I'm using no choke because I'm afraid I'll flood it".....direct quote from the original posting. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 8:31am
|
There could be several reasons for this starting issue. I have had trouble starting my tractors and folks on hear helped me get through the problems! Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 12:06pm
| The tractor has never not started it just takes way longer than it should I haven’t had time to try anything plan to get around to it this afternoon. I do choke it but I wasn’t grinding on the starter for 20 seconds with the choke on |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 4:18pm
|
Could be fuel and or spark, or worst case a worn out engine. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 4:52pm
------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:11pm
|
I will make a slight correction here. I have drilled out the welds on a WD45 air cleaner mesh retainer. But I do not plan to re-weld it. I believe the bottom most mesh retainer will stay in place just by forcing it onto the center pipe in the air cleaner. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 7:35pm
| I went out and started it today much better I’m not going to worry about it unless it’s gets bad again. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 8:06pm
|
Ok! glad its working better. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 5:40am
|
This is an annoying, but very, very simple problem. When set up right, you need nothing more than fuel on, choke, and 270 degrees of crankshaft rotation to start. That's three pulls of the hand crank, or a short blip of the starter motor. More than two turns of the engine is clearly excessive. Long cranking time, plugs wet, but no choke means there is not sufficient ignition energy to clear the plug gap enough to ignite what fuel may appear. When an engine is cold, the air density is high, and there's condensation inside the chamber. To complicate things worse, when the engine is shut down, particularly if you have throttle set high and 'key off' the ignition, the coasting engine pulls in fuel that doesn't burn... instead, it just washes the cylinder walls and leaves oily fuel on the plugs. If the running mixture is set rich, or the airway prior to the carbeurator is restricted, there will be plenty more fuel coming into the engine than needed, exacerbating the situation. When you turn it over, compression increases density more, any ignition discharge tends to bleed across moisture on the plugs from electrode to ground. If spark energy is low, it will continue to bleed until the piston has circulated enough air out of the chamber to 'dry out' the plug tip enough, at which time, plug tip insulation quality is high enough to allow ignition voltage to increase to corona point, and a spark develops. When ignition voltage is very high, it burns the moisture off in the first ignition event, and by the second, you have fire in the chamber. The exact same scenario appears inside the distributor cap, through the rotor, the top of the coil, and to a certain extent, the ignition points and condenser. You didn't note wether you had distributor or magneto, most WD45s would have a distributor, but depending on who had it before, and if they'd done a swap, it may have a magneto... regardless, your ignition system needs a little TLC. I'll GUESS that your WD45 has a distributor. If it does, pull the distributor cap, check the distributor shaft for slop. If it's sloppy, pull the distributor and have it rebuilt, and install an electronic conversion kit, new rotor, cap, wires (resistor type), and coil, with a new set of plugs. If it's a magneto, take it to a magneto specialist for a complete overhaul, and reinstall it with SOLID CORE wires and new plugs. Then make sure that air cleaner is clean. My air cleaner's oil cups tend to accumulate water in the bottom, even when they're in the shed. this raises the oil level and density, hence, increases pressure drop, making a richer-yet mix. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Allis Wd45
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 3:55pm
| Tractor has a distributor how much slop should be in the distributor shaft? None or very little? |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 5:19am
|
By feel... none. When you start the engine cold, there's usually a fair amount of noticeable slop. When the engine starts, oil pressure comes up, as does resistance in the oil pump, which on many engines, is coupled to the bottom of the distributor shaft... SO... in those cases, the distributor shaft's spin tends to stabilize once the engine develops oil pressure. On a really cold day, it won't take as many turns. When you change the oil, it'll come up to pressure faster for a while, so it won't take as many turns... both of those cases result in your starting problem being less noticeable. If, after re-working the distributor, the problem goes away, always go through mixture adjustment process again, as you'll likely find that the adjustments have been gradually messed with over the years to compensate for weakening ignition. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |