D17 Series III electrical issue
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=152925
Printed Date: 04 May 2024 at 6:16pm
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Topic: D17 Series III electrical issue
Posted By: TonyT
Subject: D17 Series III electrical issue
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 3:02pm
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HI Everyone, I have a D17 series III gas that my father in law bought new back in early 60's ('63 maybe?). Still Positive ground with the original generator. Anyway, the battery tray was rotted right off from years of overflowing battery acid. Also, some of it got on the starter solenoid located underneath. So I took the tray off and had a new one fabricated. When I re-installed, I also installed a new solenoid: "(Description: Solenoid and manifold heater switch, 12-volt. Supersedes 233296. For tractor models D10, D12, D14, D15, D17. Solenoid Switch Part Number 70237136)" as I concluded being dowsed in battery acid numerous times probably wasn't a recipe for success. That is when the problems started. When I tried to hook up the negative wire to the battery, it starts welding with the post. I don't mean a little spark...I mean arc welding. At no time does the starter try to engage, so I don't think there's a short in the push button. I've been through the wiring twice thinking I either hooked something up backwards, didn't have a good ground for the solenoid or there was a pinched wire somewhere. Negative on all three. So then I started replacing parts, just in case there was additional corrosion that I couldn't see causing a ground issue. I've replaced:
I also tried:
So I'm out of ideas where to look. It is a fairly simple system, but I'll be darned if I can locate the problem. Could the solenoid be bad right from the manufacturer? Any ideas would be appreciated. |
Replies:
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 3:27pm
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Put the old solenoid back on and see what happens. Your new one may be defective. Also look closely at the cable terminals at the solenoid. Look for a short there. I assume you have the solenoid wired correctly and the starter isn't trying to engage when you attach the battery cable. BTW, for safety sake, attach the positive (ground) cable last. |
Posted By: TonyT
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 3:49pm
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Unfortunately, I can't put the old one back on. The small post broke off when I was removing it, so there's no going back. Only way to check for a bad one is to replace it. You are correct, there is absolutely no attempt by the starter to move.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 5:38pm
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If you have an ohm meter, disconnect the cables and check the resistance from the solenoid studs to the solenoid case. |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 5:53pm
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When I replaced the generator on my series II D-17, I found that the instructions in the operator's manual said that the "F" terminal on the generator was the post next to the engine and the 'A" terminal was the one farthest from the engine. Turns out the terminals are located exactly opposite of that. If I recall correctly, the terminals are identified with the letters A and F stamped into the generator housing.
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Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2018 at 7:46am
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The after market solenoid was hitting the tin work. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2018 at 9:33am
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I'm wit' Don on that one. If you're getting a flash at the Battery terminal like that, you definitely have a dead short on board somewhere. Make sure your major connections are not grounding out on the sheetmetal where you are overlooking it. You'll find the problem. Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: stroketech
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2018 at 3:01pm
| I ran into this exact problem after I broke a stud off of the original solenoid on my Series IV. Went to the friendly local Allis dealer and got a new one. It did exactly as you just said. Got a second one and it was the same. The new ones from Allis do not work in this application. I wish I had the part # from the Napa solenoid I put on it but it worked great and the guy at Napa knew exactly what I was talking about. It has to do with how the solenoid grounds itself. |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2018 at 4:45pm
| The other thing I notice is that the solenoid he describes is for a diesel as it is a combination starter switch and "manifold heater" switch. |
Posted By: TonyT
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 8:58am
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Thanks everyone....some followup comments BrianG: The solenoid I ended up getting was listed as a replacement for the gas series III, not a diesel although I wouldn't be surprised if it was listed wrong. Also, I did verify the generator leads were correct. Don/Steve: I agree, it seems like that (grounding somewhere on the tin), but it's not. Strokertech: I think you're on to something. I do think that I probably have the wrong solenoid (which is also kind of what BrianG said.....). I will contact NAPA and hopefully find someone that is knowledgeable enough to get me the right one. By chance, could you upload a picture of the one you have so I have half a chance to troubleshoot before I lay out more $$$ for another wrong one? Thanks all! |
Posted By: stroketech
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 11:43am
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I finally figured it out after staring at the Allis wiring diagram and how the solenoid grounds. I'm going to try to get the part number and a pic of the one that works like a champ. |
Posted By: TonyT
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 11:47am
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Well, I tried NAPA, they say the only solenoid available is the one that sits on the starter, not the remote one. Not sure what difference it would make, the part they offered up was ST113. I called the AC dealer and he ordered one in.....I'm hoping they actually have the right one. |
Posted By: TonyT
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 11:48am
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That would be great Stroketech, I sure would appreciate it. |
Posted By: stroketech
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 12:36pm
| I deal with our AC dealer several days a week through my job and they didn't even realize it until I got the two from them. I just told the Napa guy I needed an old style starter relay that was case grounded and he found one from some old Ford truck. |
Posted By: stroketech
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 1:22pm
I can't see a part number on it but it was Napa brand and is different from a solenoid that would be considered a "normal automotive" starter solenoid. 
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Posted By: Jim Hancock
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 1:33pm
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Well Tony, as soon as read "remote" solenoid, my first thought went to a mid 80's Ford. Wife had an 86 Ford Grand Marquis with a remote solenoid. ------------- How blessed we are by HIS GRACE! |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 4:22pm
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Sure looks like your typical mid-60s and 70s Ford solenoid. One of the small terminals probably reads (I) for ignition and the other (S) for starter. I parted out a dozen 60s Falcon/Comets and a half dozen 60s to 70s Fairlane/Torinos and I still have a few of those solenoids around somewhere. I used at least 4 in converting WDs and WD-45s to 12 volt negative ground. Maybe they would work with a positive ground system as well?
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 5:06pm
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Switching D17 over from pos ground to neg never needed to change any solenoids... ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |