R62 Deutz engine
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=149820
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Topic: R62 Deutz engine
Posted By: wekracer
Subject: R62 Deutz engine
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2018 at 4:44pm
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I have been hunting for a nice R62 Rwa and came across one with a Deutz engine. I’ve seen it discussed on here many times and I’m aware of the differences of opinion on the Deutz. It was a nice clean looking machine with lateral tilt 25’ head and 360 hugger head. He seemed flexible on price but we didn’t get to haggle at the time due to trying to get crops in. My question is. How hard is it to swap it out for a Cummins if I buy it and the engine craps out. would $10k buy a decent Cummins out of a salvage machine. I was thinking of offering $15-20 for the whole package. All opinions are welcome. I watched a newer one with Cummins sell last Saturday for $25,500 with 25, 8200 head but it was a little beat up. |
Replies:
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2018 at 5:38pm
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First of all make sure the lateral tilt works and is sound - 1996 I think was the first lat tilt and it was a Hart Carter - the Gleaner system came in 1998. What is a 360 Hugger head ? Wide row? if so it has much reduced value. What model is the grain table? You will have to have a donor engine pod for a swap- prior to the electronic Cummins unless you really know your stuff. We recently sold a used Cummins engine block to a customer who vented the block on a Cummins powered R62 - there are no guarantees on any used engine - they can all fail. IF the V8 Deutz has no blow by and knocks , just like you would check out a Cummins engine - if kept clean (like one has to keep the Cummins radiators clean) they are one powerful engine , that would be way down the list on what to look for in a used combine. That lateral tilt working is my concern and what type is it - has it been swapped from a later unit and was it swapped correctly and not rigged....as it had to be integrated into the AHHC , auto header height control. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2018 at 8:01pm
| My mistake. Fat fingers. 630 hugger 6 row 30”. He put the lateral tilt from a salvage machine. He said it worked. I didn’t catch the head model number but I think it’s newer than the combine. I met him for work completely unrelated and only had 10 minutes to look it over. Basically all the sheet metal was strait and everything was clean and in the barn. That’s the basis of my assessment in 10 min. I told him I was scared of the Deutz and he said don’t be afraid to make an offer. He wouldn’t be insulted. I told him we would come look it over after beams were all in and he agreed. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 7:55am
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go for it - has lots of potential... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 11:28am
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We are going to look at it tomorrow. I know the conventional combines well but the rotaries are new to me. Can someone give me some of the major wear areas to look at and how to tell if they are worn out. Such as rotar bars and cage. How thick should the teeth be. Also what should I be looking for on the Deutz. Thanks in advance |
Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 1:47pm
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Check for oil leaks around the jugs(cylinders and heads). If been leaking awhile the motor could have overheated. Open up the covers on top of the motor and check and see if the cooling fins are plugged up. Pop open the rotor door and look at the rotor. Cylinder bars are similar to conventionals on wear. Helical bars should be checked. Take a pen or pencil and try and stick it between the accelerator rolls beneath the cage. If you can, they need replaced. They are a CRITICAL part of the cleaning system on a Gleaner. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 2:17pm
| Deutz is a good well-built engine as well. |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 4:18pm
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It would less miserable to put your nuts in a vise and crank the handle down. 94-95 ish on had other updates. Belt drive clean grain fan is huge upgrade also. Run ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: Daehler
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 6:42pm
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Check the fan on the engine for wear, that can cause the engine to run hot if the blades are rounded and is a high dollar item. As said before, oil leaks are the biggest cause of engine failure. Rotor bars should look the same the length of the rotor, they tend to wear more were the crop enters on the right side. If they are rounded and flat its time for new ones, probably the same as a convetional machine. Also check helical bars in cage to make sure they aren't rounded. ------------- 8070FWA,7080 BlackBelly, 7045,2 200s,D19,D17,G, WD,45,UC,7 AC mowers and lots more! "IT TAKES 3 JD's TO OUT DO AN ALLIS, 2 TO MATCH IT IN THE FIELD AND 1 FOR PARTS!" |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 9:21pm
| Feeder house floor and the upper feed chain floor, especially check just behind the transition from one chain to the other. Not hard to replace but takes some time, welder plasma etc. Check the concave as well as the sepertor bars and helical bars. Check the tube (clean grain) from the shoe to the elevator. Look at the clean grain and tailings elevator sprockets and chains Especially look over the feed chain sprockets and chains, when one of them brakes all I can say is ouch BTDTB! Bin fill auger and tube wear out fairly frequently as well. Chopper knives and the floor under the chopper. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2018 at 9:29pm
| Thanks for the input. Is there a good way to check the feeder house floor. I looked at one a while back and couldn’t find a way to check it out |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 6:15am
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Look from underneath, over the top of the transmission, if there are dents from the inside out and tap it with a hammer, if it is thin your ear will know or you will put a dent in it easy Also check out the auger swivel and look over the unload tube if there a dents and creases in it there is a chance that the swivel may have had an incident or two and they are not cheap to replace
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Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 4:43pm
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We looked at it today. It wasn’t quite as nice as I originally thought but still probably a 7 out of 10. First off it was 3 quarts low on engine oil and it has a gilcrest pusher axel with the hydraulic lines capped off. I asked why and he said they heated up when going down the road and he didn’t know why. Then I noticed the hubs were engaged. He said he never could get them to disengage. I think that may be the problem but hard to say what else has been damaged in the drive motors. It also has a lot of slop in the shifter and was very hard to find the start position. He also told me it needed a ac compressor. But once it started it sounded good. The block had some oil on it but the fins all looked clean from what I could tell. The fan seemed to be in good shape. Corners were fairly square. If the cylinder bars are like a conventional they look brand new. I think the accelerator roles were new too. He told me it was rebuilt before he got it. Along with new rattle chains. Tires were 75% or better 30.5s. It’s got a 25’ 500 head that looks average or better. Reel teath are cut off pretty short and standard sickle. The lateral tilt worked manually. It didn’t have the head on so I don’t know if it worked automatically. He started at $30 but I’m thinking of offering $10. There are a lot that makes me nervous. In looking at everything else I forgot to look at hours but he said he thought it had 3000 engine. |
Posted By: Daehler
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 4:54pm
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It takes a unfolded pocket knife or something of that sort to get a gilcrest hub disengaged. The R50 i have has one and it takes alot of pressure to push in the center pin. I would pass on that combine if those hubs were always engaged, might have a bunch of metal shavings in the hydro system. ------------- 8070FWA,7080 BlackBelly, 7045,2 200s,D19,D17,G, WD,45,UC,7 AC mowers and lots more! "IT TAKES 3 JD's TO OUT DO AN ALLIS, 2 TO MATCH IT IN THE FIELD AND 1 FOR PARTS!" |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 5:01pm
| As far as the 3 quarts low, remember, this is an air cooled engine, therefore, the engine oil is used to heat the cab. Depending on how much oil is in the cab heating system, can make a big difference as to the engine oil level. As long as the oil level is above the add mark, I wouldn't be concerned about it. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 5:51pm
| He did say the hydro was just rebuilt before he stopped using it |
Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 7:33pm
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Checking the oil on our Deutz can be fun sometimes. Did you move the little piece of rubber on the dipstick tube before pulling the dipstick out? It can affect the reading. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2018 at 9:16pm
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If hydro was rebuilt, was the RWA motors rebuilt at same time? Was all hoses flushed? Was hydraulic tank cleaned? Was hydraulic oil replaced? All this needs done when a hydro is rebuilt. Foreign matter goes every where when a hydro fails, and the hydro oil cooler on a Deutz is almost impossible to clean out. . MACK |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 8:01am
| Just to update. We decided not to make an offer. There are just too many red flags on this one. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 8:15am
| I agree...too many maybe's. Got to be something better out there.Just don't get in a hurry and always be ready to walk away. |
Posted By: GM Guy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 7:26pm
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Dont be afraid of the Deutz if its had anything that resembles care. If neglected, the 6 cylinder will scuff a cylinder before a V8 would it seems. I know a custom cutter that is notorious for neglecting his equipment, and suprisingly he has very fond memories of the Deutz when he had some Deutz powered R62s. "Just make the boys blow it out daily, and they'll run forever!" I am keeping an eye out for a R62 or a R72, and I will take a Deutz or Cummins in the R72 (since it will be L10 or M11) , but in the R62, I wont take a Cummins. I have a hatred for the 8.3L in combines. Gutless as heck, guzzles fuel. The Deutz will fight a slug or a mudhole to the death, 8.3L will whimper and whine. Its perfectly sized for a 160-200 HP tractor, but it is not much of a 200+ HP combine engine IMO. ------------- Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine. If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 8:54pm
| It wasn’t the engine that scared me. It was the fact that the engine oil was barely on the dipstick and running the gilcrest axel down the road with the hubs locked in. That deadheads the motors which is most likely what took the hydro out the first time. I didn’t want to take a chance on replacing the hydro and rear drive motors again. I would have full retail price in it plus my labor. I might as well go find what I’m wanting and pay retail. And be done with it. It’s awful hard to polish a turd. |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 9:25pm
I call bull!!!!!!!! We’ve had had both Cummins and Duetz powered R’s. Hands down the Cummins is superior. We blew our Duetz out and reliability was still horrid. They are cold blooded and have no block heater. Cab climate control is miserable. Fuel per hour the Duetz does better but per acre it’s close. Power wise the 8.3 in my 7580 pegged the dyno at 220hp at a whopping 1600rpm imagine what it would do at the rated 2300? ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
GM Guy wrote:Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 7:54am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:05am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:32am
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We got 3 8.3 Cummins very happy with them. Their was a Duetz dealer mile from where I live the neighborhood had many at one time none are still used after have one of their motors I see why. ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: GM Guy
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 10:19pm
You had a 6 cylinder R52, correct? I have not ran one, but I will take your word for it that it wasnt that good. Going off the parts sales, Mikes equipment seems to sell out of the 6 cylinder quite often. But, Have you ran a Class 6 or 7 with the V8 Deutz? If not, I would hold judgement till you do, they are quite gutsy and great on fuel. GPH and GPA figures are both excellent. The torque rise may be decent on the tractor application, but for a combine to do a good job she needs to be at rated RPMor close to it, and the initial pull down is where the 8.3L sucks. poor top end recovery. In a R52 I bet the 8.3L is a hoss, but going from a 816 cu in V8 (or 779 twin turboed depending on year) to a 505 I6 in the R62 is a let down. ------------- Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine. If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help. |
Posted By: tab
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 5:11am
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I liked the air cooled motors other than the cab heat I have a hard time believing anyone can say they would rather have the doggy 8.3 over the twin turbo v8 you never had to put tape over the beeper on one of those !!, I guessed where lucky never had an issue with 50's 52's or 62 with the air cooled we had a 62 each way at one time at least 25 percent more capacity with them I've had several 8.3 they are all dogs Tim |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 7:57am
We got 3 8.3 Cummins 1 in the combine, 1 in a tractor and 1 in a semi. The semi is a bit under powered but the tractor and combine are great. I’ve backed off a lot less times for the 8.3 than I did the Duetz. The 8.3 in my 7580 has plenty of power to wreck the drivetrain. ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 8:44am
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Another thought If Cummins is as bad as folks on here think why did Agco, Deere, New Holland, Massey and CIH use them in tractors? How many trucks and industrial pieces have them? I don’t know the numbers but I bet several times more Cummins made than Duetz ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 12:01pm
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The only reason I would prefer Cummins is for parts. Deutz is overall a good engine in my book and so is Cummins. IMO the big Deutz does out perform the smaller Cummins powerwise. When I was at the Allis dealership the biggest problem we had was convincing a farmer to even try one out and then repair work was no fun because we weren't quite properly equipped. One smaller 50 or 60 hp tractor came in for a clutch job and other things but the book they sent us was only written in German. Had to call a regular Deutz dealer in Iowa to walk us through the job. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: tab
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 12:10pm
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Well an n14 iin a truck or an 8960 Deere is one thing I have had them in those no complaints an 8.3 in a combine is another thing all together forgot I had a gutless 8.3 in a newholland front wheel assist with the added joy of a crappy fuel system lets see most manufactures have left the cumins for all different kinds of engines Tim |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 5:14pm
And out of the five, only Deere is still using them.
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Posted By: 6080fwa
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 6:50pm
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The deutz motor has to be kept clean to be reliable. I would run it up to temp and then use a laser thermometer and check all cylinders and heads before u buy it and all bearings etc..... if its a good motor with regular mntce it will last a long time..... where did the few qts of oil go I wonder? low oil or dirty oil is death to a deutz. I have one in my 9150 and it pulls very strong.
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